Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

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Ralph
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Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by Ralph »

There is no middle ground on this, at least in the news media. Pro- sites are all about saying the father is "abusing" the child by not recognizing the kid as a girl named Luna; anti- sites are casting the mother as the abuser by forcing her own gender norms on a child who doesn't know any better. One thing is certain, at least one side isn't being truthful. Listening to dad's side of the story, the child is perfectly happy presenting as a boy on dad's time; listening to the mother's side (and her lawyers), Luna is in extreme distress by dad's refusal to affirm the new gender identity. They can't both be true.

Any chance we can discuss this without getting the thread blocked for abusive language?

https://thetexan.news/breaking-dallas-j ... der-child/
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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by oldsalt1 »

I don't think that the child is old enough to decide what it wants to be .I think that his indecision is the result of the parents in this case the mothers desires and influence.

unfortunately it is not possible to distinguish the child's true desires separated from the parents influence.

The mother wants him to be a girl he wants to please the mother so he wants to be a girl results a happy kid and a 14 year old suicide

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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

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Ralph wrote:There is no middle ground on this, at least in the news media. Pro- sites are all about saying the father is "abusing" the child by not recognizing the kid as a girl named Luna; anti- sites are casting the mother as the abuser by forcing her own gender norms on a child who doesn't know any better. One thing is certain, at least one side isn't being truthful. Listening to dad's side of the story, the child is perfectly happy presenting as a boy on dad's time; listening to the mother's side (and her lawyers), Luna is in extreme distress by dad's refusal to affirm the new gender identity. They can't both be true.

Any chance we can discuss this without getting the thread blocked for abusive language?

https://thetexan.news/breaking-dallas-j ... der-child/
I hope we can discuss this without being abusive with each other.

The other huge dynamic here is the state of family law in the western world, which is abysmal. By making it an adversarial system and giving the courts a mandate most informed by the needs of the state not the needs of children (but under the pretext of putting children's needs first), we've set up a system where the worst behaviour by parents, and even emotional/psychological abuse of children, is rewarded. False and specious allegations are the stuff of winning, and the rules of evidence (and indeed even reason) do not apply in family court, as they do in criminal court. If you can employ a socially-popular idea to win, you will. At one time, for example, an accusation of moral terpitude, for example one's homosexuality, would have weighed heavily if not decisively against a parent. Today, failure to be sufficiently attuned to the correct social narrative may be equally prejudicial.

Sole custody, statistically, is granted to the parent who most successfully isolates the child from the other parent. A rarely overturned tactic is to secure the child at a location inaccessible to the other parent and obtain a restraining order (aka "peace bond") against the other parent. Charging the other parent with violence or some other kind of abuse can help, but most shelters are not allowed to require a fleeing parent to do that, so it can be optional if the shelter system is what one chooses to use as an inaccessible location. In the absence of a very, very strong argument against a parent, sole custody is usually granted to the parent currently having "care and control" of the child; typically the parent who acted first. The rationale is that it is least "disruptive" to children, and disruption is (without evidence) understood as a bad thing for children. This simply makes it easier for courts to end cases quickly, without having to spend hundreds of hours trying to evaluate the mountains of very subjective claims made by parents in support of their side and against the other side. Politically, sole custody is a form of taxation of non-custodial parents. A family on welfare can be made to receive less assistance if one of them can be denied it, which is accomplished by ensuring that the parent has no children to support. It really is that cold and instrumentalistic.

So, the family court system is sick, and I don't think the transgender issue is realistically explored through any lens in which it is involved, because the system distorts everything so badly to start with.

There is a recently released documentary entitled "Erasing Family". It's not in wide release yet, I don't think, but I highly recommend seeing it if you are able. I saw a pre-release screening of it and don't know much more about its availability. Google search it if you are interested.

For the record, my choice would be to allow the boy to dress as he wishes but not encourage any kind of ideation around changing "gender". I would not allow the school to record his name as anything chosen by him, but they would be free to call him by his chosen nickname. How I counselled my son would be up to me, and I hope I would do a good job. I categorically deny that the state has any business ordering gender-oriented medical procedures for minor children, including puberty blockers, even though I know that parents can make mistakes and disallow such when they should perhaps allow them. (I think it equally possible that "experts" would make the mistake of allowing them when they should not.) If a court case puts the state in the defacto position of making the decision, by favouring one parent over another, I think it needs to re-hear the custody case, specifically disallowing "gender changing" as any part of the evidence or considerations.

I don't think that we yet have either the scientific or social wisdom to make good determinations in this area and I don't want to see either side have its views systemically entrenched in any way, particularly where children are involved.
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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

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Daryl wrote:There is no middle ground on this, at least in the news media. and the rules of evidence (and indeed even reason) do not apply in family court, as they do in criminal court. If you can employ a socially-popular idea to win, you will. At one time, for example, an accusation of moral terpitude, for example one's homosexuality, would have weighed heavily if not decisively against a parent. Today, failure to be sufficiently attuned to the correct social narrative may be equally prejudicial.

Sole custody, statistically, is granted to the parent who most successfully isolates the child from the other parent. A rarely overturned tactic is to secure the child at a location inaccessible to the other parent and obtain a restraining order (aka "peace bond") against the other parent. Charging the other parent with violence or some other kind of abuse can help, but most shelters are not allowed to require a fleeing parent to do that, so it can be optional if the shelter system is what one chooses to use as an inaccessible location. In the absence of a very, very strong argument against a parent, sole custody is usually granted to the parent currently having "care and control" of the child; typically the parent who acted first. The rationale is that it is least "disruptive" to children, and disruption is (without evidence) understood as a bad thing for children. This simply makes it easier for courts to end cases quickly, without having to spend hundreds of hours trying to evaluate the mountains of very subjective claims made by parents in support of their side and against the other side. Politically, sole custody is a form of taxation of non-custodial parents. A family on welfare can be made to receive less assistance if one of them can be denied it, which is accomplished by ensuring that the parent has no children to support. It really is that cold and instrumentalistic.

So, the family court system is sick, and I don't think the transgender issue is realistically explored through any lens in which it is involved, because the system distorts everything so badly to start with.

Daryl you have made a well stated point and concisely summarized the family court system here. I wish to add a few things here, as I have extensive experience with this system. My experience stems from personal and occupational knowledge. In Tennessee a restraining order is a civil document issued by an attorney. It is typically seen but seldom used in domestic related incidences. An order of protection is preferred over the restraining order as it gives the police and the accuser the right to have the violator arrested. Domestic shelters here are only for women and there is nothing done to accommodate a male who falls victim to abuse.

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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

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Freedomforall wrote:
Daryl wrote:There is no middle ground on this, at least in the news media. and the rules of evidence (and indeed even reason) do not apply in family court, as they do in criminal court. If you can employ a socially-popular idea to win, you will. At one time, for example, an accusation of moral terpitude, for example one's homosexuality, would have weighed heavily if not decisively against a parent. Today, failure to be sufficiently attuned to the correct social narrative may be equally prejudicial.

Sole custody, statistically, is granted to the parent who most successfully isolates the child from the other parent. A rarely overturned tactic is to secure the child at a location inaccessible to the other parent and obtain a restraining order (aka "peace bond") against the other parent. Charging the other parent with violence or some other kind of abuse can help, but most shelters are not allowed to require a fleeing parent to do that, so it can be optional if the shelter system is what one chooses to use as an inaccessible location. In the absence of a very, very strong argument against a parent, sole custody is usually granted to the parent currently having "care and control" of the child; typically the parent who acted first. The rationale is that it is least "disruptive" to children, and disruption is (without evidence) understood as a bad thing for children. This simply makes it easier for courts to end cases quickly, without having to spend hundreds of hours trying to evaluate the mountains of very subjective claims made by parents in support of their side and against the other side. Politically, sole custody is a form of taxation of non-custodial parents. A family on welfare can be made to receive less assistance if one of them can be denied it, which is accomplished by ensuring that the parent has no children to support. It really is that cold and instrumentalistic.

So, the family court system is sick, and I don't think the transgender issue is realistically explored through any lens in which it is involved, because the system distorts everything so badly to start with.

Daryl you have made a well stated point and concisely summarized the family court system here. I wish to add a few things here, as I have extensive experience with this system. My experience stems from personal and occupational knowledge. In Tennessee a restraining order is a civil document issued by an attorney. It is typically seen but seldom used in domestic related incidences. An order of protection is preferred over the restraining order as it gives the police and the accuser the right to have the violator arrested. Domestic shelters here are only for women and there is nothing done to accommodate a male who falls victim to abuse.
There are several variations on the restraining order theme, it seems, so thanks for that clarification. Not all jurisdictions use the same language the same way.

We are working hard to make domestic shelters available for men too, in my country. The data is that abuse, including physical assault (which children often witness even if not themselves being hit), is pretty much equal between the sexes. There is no rationale for services to be gendered.
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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by Sinned »

The family legal system is screwed over here too. In the vast majority of cases custody and parental rights are vested in the mother. My son is unusual in having custody of his two children but only because their mother was assessed by social services as being unfit to take care of them. Drug taking, no problem. Sleeping around, not an issue. Having a mess for a living abode, well she could try harder. The deciding factors were her physical health which isn't good and that my grandson hates his stepbrother who lives with his mother. That my son can provide a stable and owned home with a traditional family and family and grandparents nearby is a bonus. Schools are within walking distance. So yes I have in my possession a 4 inch thick wadge of documents pertaining to social service visits and reports, some of which make alarming reading. Their mother has made several claims to court [0] to try and get possession of the two children and the courts have now said that she has to desist from such frivolous claims. In one recent case here in York my son's custody was reaffirmed and outside the court the mother said that she didn't care and was taking them home anyway and my son had to physically stop her from taking them.

[0] We are all here in York, our grandchidren's mother lives near Bristol over the other side of the country. Initially court cases were decided there but my son the court changed to over here, meaning that she now has a long journey to get to court.
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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

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Sinned wrote:The family legal system is screwed over here too. In the vast majority of cases custody and parental rights are vested in the mother. My son is unusual in having custody of his two children but only because their mother was assessed by social services as being unfit to take care of them. Drug taking, no problem. Sleeping around, not an issue. Having a mess for a living abode, well she could try harder. The deciding factors were her physical health which isn't good and that my grandson hates his stepbrother who lives with his mother. That my son can provide a stable and owned home with a traditional family and family and grandparents nearby is a bonus. Schools are within walking distance. So yes I have in my possession a 4 inch thick wadge of documents pertaining to social service visits and reports, some of which make alarming reading. Their mother has made several claims to court [0] to try and get possession of the two children and the courts have now said that she has to desist from such frivolous claims. In one recent case here in York my son's custody was reaffirmed and outside the court the mother said that she didn't care and was taking them home anyway and my son had to physically stop her from taking them.

[0] We are all here in York, our grandchidren's mother lives near Bristol over the other side of the country. Initially court cases were decided there but my son the court changed to over here, meaning that she now has a long journey to get to court.
The family courts are definitely misandric but remarkably the film Erasing Family uses more female examples than male and still propels meaningful change that benefits men's equality before the law. True equality is genderless. Glad to hear your son got a good outcome. Men reading this can see that it is possible, at least, and keep hoping for and demanding change.
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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by crfriend »

beachlion wrote:New developments in this case.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/26/us/texas ... index.html
The upshot in this is that there's a temporary hold on the mother's interests and a gag-order on the father's. That's hardly equitable in the long term.

Does anybody have any idea how the child feels about the matter -- and is the child actually mature enough to make a rational decision on the matter?

What about the ever-moving goalposts of what it means to be "a man"? Has anybody bothered to consider that? I rather suspect not.
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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by dillon »

I would have little optimism for the child’s interest in the state of Texas. Or in almost any southern state, including my own. I just wish people voted what they feel in their hearts, rather than what pleases their gender/sexuality-aggressive church, neighbors, family, or friends.
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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by stevelous »

Why do politicians need to get involved in what is a family problem. From recent events both here in the UK and abroad all of them say what they 'think' the populous want to hear (that's if they can think at all). A child's gender presentation is not governed by either right or left wing agendas. However badly constructed laws and judicial opinions/ rulings can cause much pain, suffering and all to often self harm in the effected individuals.

The child should be allowed to express themselves in the way they want. I also believe that young people do know how hey feel and whether they feel they are in the wrong body. They may be a little too young to understand the full implications but need support to realise this with no bias one way or the other.

It seems that the Father in this has rejected the possibility that the child is trans and that the child does not want to 'upset' the father. The Mother seems more open and kids are often closer to their mothers and will confide things in them they would not repeat to others.

Sadly I can see that the father will never be a real Dad but the mother is becoming a real Mum (Mom). It takes a caring, empathic and loving man to be a Dad (any fertile male can father a child but it takes a special one to be a Dad).

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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by r.m.anderson »

Reminds me of the wisdom of Solomon:

Two parents arguing over the child about which parent's needs would serve the best interests of the child -
The parents and child are taken to a butcher shop (or even a saw mill - something that cuts things into two) -
The child is placed on the cutting platform and the process begins to divide the child equally -

THE FIRST ONE THAT FLINCHES IS THE WINNER saving the child - - -

The one that would see the child divided into two parts is too self serving and not worthy -
The one that stops the dividing is the true one interested in what would be good for the child - LIFE instead of DEATH !

But such judgments by todays standards are deemed cruel and inhumane because they lack the back bone of Solomon's wisdom
to force the issue.

Child I have a story to tell you about your upbringing - your ________ fill in the blank with the name of the person who
saved the child from --- being a divided custody case which maybe worse than death.
"Kilt-On" -or- as the case may be "Skirt-On" !
WHY ?
Isn't wearing a kilt enough?
Well a skirt will do in a pinch!
Make mine short and don't you dare think of pinching there !

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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by Daryl »

crfriend wrote:What about the ever-moving goalposts of what it means to be "a man"? Has anybody bothered to consider that? I rather suspect not.
Do you mean that the court and those discussing this case are too focussed on the either/or and insufficiently aware of the fact that the distinctions they are making may be made moot by the rapidly changing concepts of the range of manhood itself?

It would be easy to get me to agree that we collectively pay too much attention to yesterday's conceptions. We, and especially the courts, are really constituted such that we prefer stationary targets, but in cases like these the "facts" of the case can change merely because the present is changing. (nevermind the future)
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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by Gusto10 »

stevelous wrote:Why do politicians need to get involved in what is a family problem. From recent events both here in the UK and abroad all of them say what they 'think' the populous want to hear (that's if they can think at all). A child's gender presentation is not governed by either right or left wing agendas. However badly constructed laws and judicial opinions/ rulings can cause much pain, suffering and all to often self harm in the effected individuals.
1) in countries of Case-law system like the UK, the law is made "at will" by the judge as we have seen in the idiosyncrasy of the Brexit.
2) in countries where there is a law, that law will be clarified by the judge which can also be fitting the opportunity, thus a hybrid system of law with augmentation via cases.

From experience I had to take a case to supreme court in order to let the Judge follow the law. It wasn't the first time that the High Court tried wo wiggle out from entertaining the matter. Afterwards one of the judges of the High Court verdict indicated during a game of Golf, that it was so right what I had done, as such was written in the Law.

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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by Daryl »

r.m.anderson wrote:Reminds me of the wisdom of Solomon:

Two parents arguing over the child about which parent's needs would serve the best interests of the child -
The parents and child are taken to a butcher shop (or even a saw mill - something that cuts things into two) -
The child is placed on the cutting platform and the process begins to divide the child equally -

THE FIRST ONE THAT FLINCHES IS THE WINNER saving the child - - -

The one that would see the child divided into two parts is too self serving and not worthy -
The one that stops the dividing is the true one interested in what would be good for the child - LIFE instead of DEATH !

But such judgments by todays standards are deemed cruel and inhumane because they lack the back bone of Solomon's wisdom
to force the issue.

Child I have a story to tell you about your upbringing - your ________ fill in the blank with the name of the person who
saved the child from --- being a divided custody case which maybe worse than death.
That story of Solomon's wisdom isn't really meant to comment on child custody cases but I suspect that it unconsciously serves to bias the courts and society in general. The courts have worked on the assumption that a "divided child" is a bad thing and failed to assign shared custody despite evidence that it is the best outcome for children.

It seems a case of a wisdom story having unintended side effects.
Daryl...

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