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dillon wrote:I think men are a lot like dogs. Fido may be the sweetest pet anyone could imagine when he’s at home with his owner. But, I can attest as a country boy, when Fido gets together with those other sweet pets, a different nature emerges, and in a pack everyone’s precious pooches will attack and kill livestock, tear sheep or goats or pigs to shreds. The competitive “dogs” within men - testosterone-fueled greed, rivalry, fear, and jealousy - are the essential sources of the inability of humans to live in peace and intelligently solve problems. Insecurity, magnified, is a hideous beast.

Wow.... Can you say sexist much?

I get your point, in so far as some boys and young men do form violent gangs, but the vast majority of us would never turn that animalistic.

Why? Because we have been raised in a civilized society, with our fathers providing a good, male, role model and keeping us in line. Yes, some animals also show this modeling of behavior with older males keeping younger males in line, such as elephants:

http://thesestonewalls.com/gordon-macra ... s-and-men/

Dust wrote:

dillon wrote:I think men are a lot like dogs. Fido may be the sweetest pet anyone could imagine when he’s at home with his owner. But, I can attest as a country boy, when Fido gets together with those other sweet pets, a different nature emerges, and in a pack everyone’s precious pooches will attack and kill livestock, tear sheep or goats or pigs to shreds. The competitive “dogs” within men - testosterone-fueled greed, rivalry, fear, and jealousy - are the essential sources of the inability of humans to live in peace and intelligently solve problems. Insecurity, magnified, is a hideous beast.

Wow.... Can you say sexist much?

Were a woman to say similarly stereotypical things about women, feminists would say she had "internalised misogyny". Internalised misandry seems equally likely to conclude. Both are far too simplistic to my mind, but not without some tiny grains of truth, at times.

Sorry if I tarred everyone with a Y chromosome with the same brush. But it would require precision surgery to remove the pure and unafflicted from the rest. Not all men are brutes. But most men are not aware that they less than models of humanity, and perhaps very unaware of how masculine competiveness affects their behavior among other men. The way men have been traditionally socialized, coupled with the natural influence of testosterone, results in the ugly and, to use a popular term, “toxic” aspects of masculinity. Like most socialized prejudices, it can’t be unlearned, only controlled by disciplined self-awareness. But consider the brutality that results from unchecked male aggression as it is taken to its natural extreme. When the nature of a pack is for the alpha dog to prevail, sans conscience and self-awareness, brutality becomes not only possible and likely, but unavoidable.

dillon wrote:Like most socialized prejudices, ["[rad-fem hate-speech redacted]", aka machismo] can’t be unlearned, only controlled by disciplined self-awareness.

One of the hallmarks of old-school pre-radical feminism masculinity was dignity and a constant control over the baser instincts. This is now prohibited ground as only women are allowed to be dignified. The same thing goes for humility -- again, off the table for the everyday male and now the purview of women.

Historically, braggadocio was considered a social faux pax for men; now it's expected. Teamwork was expected of men fifty years ago -- today it's all about the superstar. And to think we call this "progress".

I'm not sure which is worse: whether we've allowed it to be done to us or that we did it to ourselves due to an external shove. We are not better for it.

Having been in university when women's liberation was starting, I see no basis for the implication that the current coarsening of society is the result of radical feminism. None.

Globalization has made business and therefore life more competitive. The Reagan Administration's obsession with laissez-faire economics not only exacerbated that trend, but torpedoed many of the working class's protections from abuse further coarsening commerce and day-to-day life!

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:Having been in university when women's liberation was starting, I see no basis for the implication that the current coarsening of society is the result of radical feminism. None.

A certain perceived coarsening of the behaviour of women, as they get away from the strictures of "ladylike" behaviour, may be justifiably attributable to the influence of feminism, but I rather like the fact that women can express themselves more frankly now than before. I don't think it's gotten too extreme.

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:Globalization has made business and therefore life more competitive. The Reagan Administration's obsession with laissez-faire economics not only exacerbated that trend, but torpedoed many of the working class's protections from abuse further coarsening commerce and day-to-day life!

The extreme coarsening of society that appears to be happening now is, I suspect, rather more related to our general loss of recognition of any moral authority but the individual. Our internal regulators really work a lot better if we perceive that they are backed up by higher-level imperatives, but our moral environment today precludes these. The circumstances following from changes in macro-economic philosophy Reagan-era to present have certainly contributed to anger, and general disdain for authority as well. With both of these operative at once, we may be lucky we're not yet all just hanging from trees and flinging feces at passersby. Oh, scratch that "yet" qualifier; I forgot about Twitter!

Stevie D wrote:

JohnH wrote:I believe the plague of transgenderism (vast majority being male-to-female ) ...

To say that I am annoyed about this would be a huge understatement. Why, oh why, do you have to use such emotive and offensive language as that? Have you ever been harmed by any member of the transgender community? Would you like to come and explain to my 43-year old daughter who is a highly successful and much loved trans woman why she is part of a plague? And as for myself; I identify as gender-fluid, verging on trans. Am I part of the plague too?

Stevie, I do not mean to badmouth trans women. Rather it is the extreme inflexibility of masculine conventions that drive men to transition.

Believe me, I have transgender tendencies, such as being on estrogen for 8 years and developing a feminine figure, including a bra cup size of DD. I feel a lot calmer, and I am no longer suicidal. I also don't have a problem of overconsumption of alcohol anymore. I could call myself a transgender woman but personally I rebel against doing that.

It's one thing to genuinely feel the need to transition from male to female, but it's another thing to feel like you have to transition simply because you don't fit in with the expectations of a man. And what I meant by plague is about cases where men transition because they do not fit in with expectations for men. If that latter case were not true I suspect there would be far fewer transitions.

Something to think about: It feels mighty good after folding, spindling, mutilating, and burning my man card to ashes. I don't give a sh!t about something not being manly enough. I just be myself. I look a lot like a genetic woman, but in the church choir I am the only true bass, singing down to C2, two ledger lines below the bass staff.

John

Here's an interesting nut to crack...

I, and people who know me personally have told me that they consider me somewhat "feminine" like. Now I'm talking about my personality and how I conduct myself day to day, this has nothing to do with how I dress, mainly because I've been told this since childhood (decades before I ever donned a skirt). When mom told her soon to be husband about my style in dress, he said "I'm not surprised", as to indicate that he knew there was something "off" about me even before he knew of my crossdressing tendencies.

Indeed, I tend to be very empathetic towards people (despite having a general loathing for humanity as a whole), just last night while talking to Jenn about a guy who sort of lives across the street in a tough spot right now, an alcoholic, and I'd say mostly homeless (seems to live in his car). When I came back and starting discussing his situation, I began to choke up, later making a few trips back across the street to offer food, a warm sofa to lay on, or at least some gas money for his car as it was to get VERY cold last night. My interest tend to not be in competitive activities like sports, racing, etc. I never participating in these things growing up. I've never sat through an entire foot ball game, and quite frankly I'd rather do dishes than watch a super bowl. And I've actually done this (just ask Jenn). I like flowers, painting, pretty things, scenic views, etc. I do not consider myself "transgender", a "woman", or anything of the sort, but there is no doubt that certainly have a "ladylike" nature about me.... These last several years, I have learned to accept this and stop feeling like an inadequate human being for it. Hence my practice into my long held desire to wear ladylike and feminine clothing. I will no longer apologize for the way my soul seems to be wired.

The nut to crack:

My chemistry is fine... it's "normal". This according to my doctor. Yes, he checks the hormones of his patients every year. My testosterone and estrogen levels are within normal range for a man my age.

What does that mean for me?

moonshadow wrote:What does that mean for me?

It means that you're a perfectly "normal" man that feels constrained by modern society's perception of what a man should be.

There's the crux of the matter -- society, with all the forces in play that are pulling it one way or the other, has changed and its expectations have changed -- you no longer "fit" because you're now "different" whereas you weren't a while ago. You didn't change, the world around you did. And that's what I find so disgusting about the matter.

WHAT CARL SAID......

Hello JohnH,

I have met a lot of trans women in my life; I can’t think of any who transitioned because of “the extreme inflexibility of masculinity” you hypothesized. If you don’t know any, personally who fit your profile, I suggest you let go of your theory.

Hello Moon,

I don’t believe testosterone and estrogen levels are determinative of personality.

Hello Carl,

Evidently you missed Moonshadow’s assertion that people have ALWAYS regarded him as somewhat feminine.

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:Hello Moon,

I don’t believe testosterone and estrogen levels are determinative of personality.

Indeed. That's the overall point that I struggle with. It also makes me question what goes through the mind of a transgender person. I mean no ill or malice with these questions. Again, these are questions I struggle with, questions such as:

1) Am I a transgender person in denial [of my "trans-ness"]?

2) Am I a "failed transgender"?

I ask these questions of myself periodically, though I try not to vex on them to the point of having a complex over it. The simple fact of the matter is even if I had a strong desire to "take it all the way", it would surely ruin my life. Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but my locale isn't exactly "trans-friendly".

But on the other hand, when you get right down to it, I don't seem to have any desire to identify as a woman.

My comment, and your reply also raises an interesting question, I have many characteristics of what is commonly considered "feminine", yet my body chemistry is normal for a man. Thus, what exactly makes a trans-person? If it is just a matter of mental state "I think I'm a woman, therefore I am one" then why does HRT play such a significant role in trans life? Could one not theoretically be a transgender person and not partake in any HRT just as a trans-man could wear a skirt like many cis-men here do, and likewise a trans-woman could wear a pair of mens cargo pants just as many cis-women do?

If trans-life has everything to do with what the mind believes itself to be, then why all the hype over altering the body? Consider this, it has been said that many trans-people have known they were transgender for most, if not all of their life. Lets take someone around my age (38) for example, lets say this guy decided at this time that he's going to give in to his inner-life long desires and transition to a woman because deep down "he's always been one", so he begins the process of transitioning, and eventually he becomes the woman on the outside that he believes himself/herself to be on the inside.

But here's the rub... she changed. At 38 and prior, he was a she inside, now at 39 she's still a she, but now the outside matches the inside. But who decides what a "she" is supposed to be anyway? Why does it matter?

I would suppose it has to do with people's dislike of their own body. And this isn't a trans-thing exclusively. Indeed, many cis people often engage in practices to alter their look. Some going as far as having plastic surgery, maybe others body build, perhaps others simply put on makeup to hide facial blemishes, birthmarks, etc. I suppose everybody just wants to be the the person on the outside that they believe themselves to be on the inside.

And that's why I'm a trans-ally. What they are after is really do different than anyone else.

Now as for me, I'm personally satisfied enough with my body. I don't do makeup, piercings, tattoos, or any other practice that would alter the body. This is my preference. I suppose I'm not transgender because I'd probably not bother to alter my body to become a more eye appealing "woman", and thus, would make a pretty ugly one in my present state. Bathroom visits would not go well... not go well at all.

I like me. And I think that's OK. My body has it's faults, but it's all I have and I cherish it all the same. If someone were to ask me what part of my body I would change if I could change anything, I'd almost be inclined to say that I'd like to stay "forever young", but even as I approach middle age, I find myself content with my body as it ages gracefully. I do however find myself wanting to travel and explore more before time runs out. I'm also finding that I'm wanting to spend less time defining myself by my work ethic, and more time letting my soul out to play.

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:Evidently you missed Moonshadow’s assertion that people have ALWAYS regarded him as somewhat feminine.

I noted it, and I played it down deliberately. Without reference to precisely what the observers intended with the commentary one can not infer whether the observation is accurate or whether it was a dismissal or outright slur.

Also, by the time that Moon's mind was fully coming on-line society's notion of what it means to be "a man" was already heavily in flux.

By the way Dave, Carl didn't get it wrong. Sometimes my spirit seems conflicted, Carl clearly understands one side just as you seem to understand the other.

God almighty... can you imagine... a "Dave personality" and a "Carl personality" coexisting in my head....

Now y'all [0] know what I'm the way I am!



[0] Look Ralph, I put that damned apostrophe in the correct place!

Moonshadow, you definitely have a point; contemplating a "Carl persona" and a "David persona" residing in the same being is not for the faint of heart.

All jesting aside, a great primer on all of the aspects of the human experience that we lump under gender and what gives rise to the numerous variations is the January 2017 issue of National Geographic magazine. They devoted the whole issue to the various aspects of the topic. It was even printed with 4 different covers. It was an impressive piece of work for how comprehensive it was and how understandable they made each subtopic.

Well worth reading.