In defense of feminine men

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.

In defense of feminine men

Postby moonshadow » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:24 am

I'm not sure how this will be received here, but I drew a lot of encouragement from it.

The article is a little dated (2016), but still a good read in my opinion.

https://splinternews.com/in-defense-of-feminine-men-1793862306
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Re: In defense of feminine men

Postby Freedomforall » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:01 am

I have always had effeminate gestures and traits. I once had a psychologist bring them to my attention. I grew with two older sisters and thought nothing of it until he saw fit to point it all out. He of course wanted to try and "fix: me. I was in my early twenties then and very unsure of myself. I think his actions set me back even further.

It is amazing how things go in cycles. Feminine men and masculine women have been around since the beginning of time. Many cultures embrace these traits. Here is an article on feminine men and Samoan culture.

https://theculturetrip.com/pacific/samo ... rd-gender/
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Re: In defense of feminine men

Postby JohnH » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:13 pm

I believe the plague of transgenderism (vast majority being male-to-female ) is mostly due to the intolerance of feminine men. Those individuals believe they can live better as presenting as women instead of living in the coffin sized constraints society imposes on men.

It seems there are very few female-to-male transgender individuals as compared to male-to-female. Look at https://www.crossdressers.com/forums/ and you will see the overwhelming activity is male-to-female, and almost no activity is for female-to-male.

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Re: In defense of feminine men

Postby Grok » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:34 pm

Good point about the coffin for men, JohnH. Society hardly lets males get away with any behavior deemed feminine, or effeminate.

That being said, it is possible for men to get away with not acting particularly masculine. That is, if his behavior seems bland enough. (Which, I know, isn't saying much). Basically, a narrow band of behavior that is tolerated because it doesn't trigger any alarms.

If I am wearing twin-tubes, I seem bland enough that I am under the radar.
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Re: In defense of feminine men

Postby pelmut » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:57 am

JohnH wrote:I believe the plague of transgenderism (vast majority being male-to-female ) is mostly due to the intolerance of feminine men. Those individuals believe they can live better as presenting as women instead of living in the coffin sized constraints society imposes on men.

I am sorry you consider that I am part of a plague, but you have certainly identified one of the main reasons why I, and many others like me, have spent a lot of our lives hiding what we really are.  

There is no evidence that the proportion of transgender people in the population is increasing. The current prurient interest of the media is the main reason why transgender people appear to be proliferating; anything remotely linked with the subject is reported (usually inaccurately) at length and many things that have nothing to do with transgender are linked to it by false association.  We would much rather just be left to quietly get on with the lives we want to live without having to hide and without the fear that media attention brings.

It seems there are very few female-to-male transgender individuals as compared to male-to-female. Look at https://www.crossdressers.com/forums/ and you will see the overwhelming activity is male-to-female, and almost no activity is for female-to-male.

Crossdressers aren't the same thing as transgender; it's not a hobby for us, it's a way of signalling to others how we would like to be treated.  The reason why there don't appear to be many women crossdressers is because women aren't regarded as crossdressers when they wear clothes normally asociated with men -- something we have discussed here many times.
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Re: In defense of feminine men

Postby Stu » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Masculinity and femininity are innate characteristics. I consider myself masculine in the same way that I have blue eyes and wide feet. There are men who are more or less masculine than I am and that's fine. I certainly don't disparage guys who are innately feminine, so long as their femininity is natural to them and not affected.

Crossdressing isn't something I understand, though. I may be wrong, but it seems that the men who do it are trying to express something in their personality which requires them to take on the persona of another person of the opposite sex. That's fine if it is something they wish to do; it's entirely harmless and if it makes their lives better then they should be at liberty to do it and without any negative responses from others. But I don't see it as aiding or complementary to the men's skirts movement, which seeks to extend fashion choices for men and boys as masculine options. In a way, when a man puts on a skirt to emphasise femininity, he is reinforcing the perception that skirts are a signifier of femininity, which is the opposite of what we seek to achieve.
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Re: In defense of feminine men

Postby moonshadow » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:42 pm

This is turning into an interesting discussion and I'm enjoying everyone's input.

Our relation to our individual gender identity/expression is a personal journey and it's up to each of us to chart our own course.

As for male femininity, I can respect opposing views on the matter, however I take absolutely no issue being regarded as, or considering myself somewhat feminine in some regards. I don't think this makes me less of a man, but I do think it makes me more true to myself. It's not up to others to understand me, hell, half the time I can't even understand myself.

Stu wrote:In a way, when a man puts on a skirt to emphasise femininity, he is reinforcing the perception that skirts are a signifier of femininity, which is the opposite of what we seek to achieve.


My only issue with your comment is quoted above. You are claiming to speak for the group, I ask, who are the "we"? Already in this thread alone are many differing viewpoints in regards to gender, all are members of this site in good standing.

Speaking for myself, many of my skirts, I wear in a blatant attempt to emphasize femininity. I don't hold to the view that "feminine" is a dirty word for a man. Femininity is just another part of who I am, right alongside of any masculine characteristics I may have. I can respect a man who doesn't embrace the feminine in himself, if that's his choice, but in that case, his authority ends at his own skin. He does not speak for my heart or soul, nor does he get to write my story.

JohnH wrote:I believe the plague of transgenderism


Transgenderism is NOT a plague.

Plaugues cause death and destruction. If we want to talk about social matters that cause death and destruction, I can think of a few, but I ain't going there today....
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Re: In defense of feminine men

Postby Stu » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:48 pm

moonshadow wrote:
Stu wrote:In a way, when a man puts on a skirt to emphasise femininity, he is reinforcing the perception that skirts are a signifier of femininity, which is the opposite of what we seek to achieve.


My only issue with your comment is quoted above. You are claiming to speak for the group, I ask, who are the "we"? Already in this thread alone are many differing viewpoints in regards to gender, all are members of this site in good standing.


I speak for "a" group of men whom I know share my views on this, but I don't claim to speak for all men here.

As a man with almost no "feminine" aspects or desires, the last thing I want is for someone to regard my skirts-wearing as something I do to emphasise my femininity. While ever there is a powerful association between skirt-wearing and the feminine, then that serves to discourage males from seeing them as a serious option. Masculine men seek to distance themselves from the feminine, not embrace it. I am also not calling for any action with regard to this dichotomy because there is no obvious solution. I just ask those men who do see skirts as an expression of a feminine side to their characters to try to see it from our point of view.
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Re: In defense of feminine men

Postby Grok » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:53 pm

I think that many members are a kind of mirror image of Tomboys. A Tomboy may feel that she is female, and her sexual orientation may be toward males; but while growing up she took an interest in things/activities usually associated with boys.

As I recall, I once posted a link to an article about Tomboys. The article concluded that Tomboys are born, not made; that their interest in masculine things is innate.

On the other hand, some boys may take an interest in what is considered feminine.
Last edited by Grok on Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: In defense of feminine men

Postby moonshadow » Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:20 pm

Stu wrote:I speak for "a" group of men whom I know share my views on this, but I don't claim to speak for all men here.


Fair enough.

Stu wrote:As a man with almost no "feminine" aspects or desires, the last thing I want is for someone to regard my skirts-wearing as something I do to emphasise my femininity.


That's certainly your prerogative, if I were you I'd simply avoid feminine looking skirts. You'll have to accept the fact however that some men view all skirts as feminine. There's not much you can do about that.

Stu wrote:While ever there is a powerful association between skirt-wearing and the feminine, then that serves to discourage males from seeing them as a serious option.


I couldn't care less about "encouraging males" [to wear skirts], if they don't want to wear a skirt, for whatever reason, it makes no difference to me.

Stu wrote:Masculine men seek to distance themselves from the feminine, not embrace it.

Eeehhh.... we're getting into some arbitrary territory here... that comment may be debatable by some.

Stu wrote: I just ask those men who do see skirts as an expression of a feminine side to their characters to try to see it from our point of view.


Fair enough... speaking for myself, you let me live my life in peace, I'll be happy to reciprocate.

Grok wrote:I think that one thing all members can agree on is that we want MIS to be a real option for males.


They're already a "real" option. Most guys just don't want to... and that's their right. We shouldn't force this on people. If someone sees us in a skirt and they like what they see... then great, they can give it a go. If not, well that's fine too.
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Re: In defense of feminine men

Postby Stevie D » Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:44 pm

JohnH wrote:I believe the plague of transgenderism (vast majority being male-to-female ) ...

To say that I am annoyed about this would be a huge understatement. Why, oh why, do you have to use such emotive and offensive language as that? Have you ever been harmed by any member of the transgender community? Would you like to come and explain to my 43-year old daughter who is a highly successful and much loved trans woman why she is part of a plague? And as for myself; I identify as gender-fluid, verging on trans. Am I part of the plague too?

It seems there are very few female-to-male transgender individuals as compared to male-to-female. Look at https://www.crossdressers.com/forums/ and you will see the overwhelming activity is male-to-female, and almost no activity is for female-to-male.

The crossdressers forum you refer to is hardly a sound basis for determining the ratio of MtF versus FtM transgender people. You might as well seek the opinion of the readership of the Daily Mail or Daily Express.

A proper academic study to investigate these ratios was made just over ten years ago, commissioned by the UK Government Home Office and undertaken by the respected UK Gender Identity Research and Education Society (GIRES). You can read the full paper presenting the results of the investigation here. This paragraph from the Executive Summary is worth quoting:

Current prevalence may now be 20 per 100,000, i.e. 10,000 people, of whom 6,000 have undergone transition. 80% were assigned as boys at birth (now trans women) and 20% as girls (now trans men). However, there is good reason to anticipate that the gender balance may eventually become more equal.

The final sentence (my italics) is explained in more detail in the text of the report. Remember, this was the situation just prior to 2009. Things have moved on since then. Trans people are becoming generally less afraid to express themselves, to live their lives normally, openly and proudly, thanks in a large part to the internet and social media allowing them to realise they are not alone. The last thing we need are others fanning the flames of populist intolerance and hate, by using language such as 'plague'. I really thought people were better than that on this forum.
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Re: In defense of feminine men

Postby moonshadow » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:00 pm

Grok wrote:I think that many members are a kind of mirror image of Tomboys. A Tomboy may feel that she is female, and her sexual orientation may be toward males; but while growing up she took an interest in things/activities usually associated with boys.

As I recall, I once posted a link to an article about Tomboys. The article concluded that Tomboys are born, not made; that their interest in masculine things is innate.

On the other hand, some boys may take an interest in what is considered feminine.


Yeah, that's pretty much my point. I myself am like the guy version of a "tomboy" and the article that this thread is about discusses guys that I think I could relate to.

I don't believe I'm a woman, nor am I trying to be one, or impose myself on the transgender community (though being classified "trans" doesn't offend me)

Can anyone else relate or do I stand alone? Either way is fine, I'm learning to accept myself, I'm just making conversation.
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Re: In defense of feminine men

Postby Grok » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:26 pm

I have looked at various articles regarding sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression, and so forth. If I understand correctly, these different aspects tend to be correlated with different parts of the brain, and can be influenced by events in the womb.

I can't speak authoratatively regarding any of these-beyond what I have already said-as I am no expert.

One thing I have not come across is a correlation between gender identity and any innate preference regarding the wearing one or two pipes. Based on his self description, I think that that fellow Stu might confound people who associate skirts exclusively with females.
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Re: In defense of feminine men

Postby Jim » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:35 pm

Stu wrote:Masculinity and femininity are innate characteristics.

I'd like to hear more about how you support this view. Testosterone tends to build bigger stronger muscles and give a deeper voice. But there is great overlap between men and women in almost all categories that society labels masculine and feminine.

I decided I'm not worried about being masculine or feminine. I have a beard but sew. I have more interest in gardening than sports, powerful cars or military things. But I like tools and being handy fixing things around the house. I don't worry about the gender assigned to the clothes I wear, although I avoid anything too overtly feminine in public because of concern for others' reactions; my skirts aren't flowering or bright. I might get bolder someday. I don't feel a need to say these clothes are me being me; it's just what's comfortable and what I like.
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Re: In defense of feminine men

Postby moonshadow » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:12 pm

Grok wrote:One thing I have not come across is a correlation between gender identity and any innate preference regarding the wearing one or two pipes. Based on his self description, I think that that fellow Stu might confound people who associate skirts exclusively with females.


True, but take a closer look at this discussion. While skirts have been mentioned, skirts aren't the primary focus, the main focus is feminine men. Most feminine men probably don't even wear skirts in public or private, nor is that what the article is about. Likewise most women don't wear skirts exclusively. So it's quite clear that the two need not be related. Indeed I'm sure I can come off as quite feminine in a pair of skinny jeans and a scoop neck top. Not a skirt in sight.

But, skirts can be employed to explore a more feminine gender expression (or identity) for any man who chooses to try, as for the most part in western culture, skirts are primarily a womans garment. If anyone argues that, ask them to locate one in the men's side of the store.
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