Mum lets son wear dress to her wedding

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
Jim2
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Mum lets son wear dress to her wedding

Post by Jim2 »

The article can be found here https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/13/mum-lets ... -10561863/.

I really like her attitude. On the same page, I saw a link to this article: https://metro.co.uk/2019/03/06/i-want-g ... n-8828067/.

This article is about a law being introduced in England to have gender equality for school uniforms. While the article talks mainly about girls being able to wear trousers, the proposal is for equality. I especially like this statement from the article:
This is also about autonomy and teaching children that they have control of their own bodies. It’s an important step in understanding that no one should tell you what you can or cannot do with your body.
Grok
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Re: Mum lets son wear dress to her wedding

Post by Grok »

The idea that the dress will make the boy gay is comical. :lol: If I understand the theory correctly, the future sexual orientation becomes hardwired into the fetal brain during pregnancy.
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JohnH
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Re: Mum lets son wear dress to her wedding

Post by JohnH »

Years ago boys used to wear dresses until they were maybe 8 years of age. For example, John D. Rockefeller, Jr wore his sisters' hand-me-down dresses. So it shouldn't have been such a big deal for a 2 year old boy to wear a dress.

John
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Re: Mum lets son wear dress to her wedding

Post by Stu »

For younger children, just let them wear what they prefer. When it comes to events like weddings, which are there to be enjoyed, let them see the alternatives, tell them which style is more conventional for their sex, and then let them be the one to make the final choice. Does it really matter if a six-year-old page is actually female or a six-year-old bridesmaid is male? For older kids (10+), they should be regarded as participants in the process and not a focus of attention, so they should generally be made to stick to the conventions.
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Pdxfashionpioneer
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Re: Mum lets son wear dress to her wedding

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Or be allowed to be who they are … kids. With their own identities. And the license to figure out exactly what that means for them.
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.
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Epiceneguy
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Re: Mum lets son wear dress to her wedding

Post by Epiceneguy »

To be honest it's a shame it actually news worthy, it all should be pretty normal but all praise to the bride and groom
When life gives you lemons, slice them and put them into your G&T!
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Re: Mum lets son wear dress to her wedding

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I think for toddlers, it shouldn't be an issue what they wear and, if it's possible to let them choose to appear as a page or bridesmaid, let them. I think when they reach five or six, their gender identity is becoming established within themselves and also with friends and families. Consequently, I would say for a formal even like a wedding, where conventions are especially important, the default position should be to follow gender norms and departing from those should be gently discouraged. I admit I would be uncomfortable if a seven-year-old boy in my family wanted to attend a wedding in the full bridesmaid garb, or a girl of that age wanted to wear a boy's suit, shirt and tie.
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Sinned
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Re: Mum lets son wear dress to her wedding

Post by Sinned »

"....or a girl of that age wanted to wear a boy's suit, shirt and tie." But I'd bet that the girl wearing the boy's suit and tie would get away with it easily and be considered more usual with little comment raised. Double standard, double standard.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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Re: Mum lets son wear dress to her wedding

Post by STEVIE »

Stu wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:24 am
I think for toddlers, it shouldn't be an issue what they wear and, if it's possible to let them choose to appear as a page or bridesmaid, let them. I think when they reach five or six, their gender identity is becoming established within themselves and also with friends and families. Consequently, I would say for a formal even like a wedding, where conventions are especially important, the default position should be to follow gender norms and departing from those should be gently discouraged. I admit I would be uncomfortable if a seven-year-old boy in my family wanted to attend a wedding in the full bridesmaid garb, or a girl of that age wanted to wear a boy's suit, shirt and tie.
On the likelihood that the child is not your offspring, why should you be perturbed over what a seven year old wears?
Secondly, would you not wish to wear your own choice of garb at the same event?
We are all about challenging age old gender conventions are we not? With regard to the ceremony and formality of marriage, even these conventions have altered and evolved quite drastically in time and culture.
In my own case, I have refused to attend two family weddings based on this scenario. I do not see why I should submit to an arbitrary dress code which is effectively exclusive to me alone.
Social gatherings aside, on that basis just concede and stick to trousers. Convention preserved, problem solved and Aunties and Uncles are not discomfited the sight of a male in a skirt or dress.
Steve.
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Re: Mum lets son wear dress to her wedding

Post by Stu »

STEVIE wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:59 am
On the likelihood that the child is not your offspring, why should you be perturbed over what a seven year old wears? Secondly, would you not wish to wear your own choice of garb at the same event?
We are all about challenging age old gender conventions are we not? With regard to the ceremony and formality of marriage, even these conventions have altered and evolved quite drastically in time and culture.
In my own case, I have refused to attend two family weddings based on this scenario. I do not see why I should submit to an arbitrary dress code which is effectively exclusive to me alone.
Social gatherings aside, on that basis just concede and stick to trousers. Convention preserved, problem solved and Aunties and Uncles are not discomfited the sight of a male in a skirt or dress.
Steve.
I said "my family", by which I meant my children or grandchildren.
Do I wear my own "choice of garb" when I attend weddings? Generally, no - I am told what to wear and that is usually a suit and tie.
I don't have a desire to challenge gender conventions as such, that's not my point of being here. My issue is with a garment as basic as a piece of cloth that doesn't separate the legs being the exclusive choice for just half of the population. One might even call that a "men's rights issue".

Weddings are formal events and the formalities exist on the basis of traditions. They are not routine activities, otherwise there would be nothing special or momentous about them. Weddings are the joining of two opposites - the two biological entities that nature requires to make a child and one of the features of a wedding is the highlighting of those differences, not the blurring of them - and never the erasure of them. They are also events which, while enjoyed by all present, really belong to those who are marrying, and their preferences should be the primary consideration. So I will dress as I am told, or at least in such a way that does not conflict with convention, when I am attending a traditional wedding so that I do not become a focus of attention, or a source of discomfort to the primary actors.
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Re: Mum lets son wear dress to her wedding

Post by Ray »

I’m not sure I’d want to go to the weddings you attend. They sound like stuffy rigid affairs.

I got married nine years ago. There were 12 guys in kilts, nine of whom were English. One couldn’t quite afford the full kilt rig, so wore a woman’s tartan skirt and white football socks instead of kilt socks. It was slightly discordant looking, but he was happy and therefore I and other guests were also happy. He had made an effort. I appreciated that.

I myself wore a kilt suit which was made for the occasion. It was not tartan, and therefore one could argue that it broke the rules. I didn’t give a toss. Our wedding, our rules.

The wedding was all about the guests. We didn’t put a stupid arbitrary rules, we didn’t insist on a formal dress code, and we certainly didn’t promote rigid customs.

It was a celebration, and that involves putting people at ease. Well, it does if you care about them.

If a young boy had appeared at our wedding in his favourite princess dress, we would have done our utmost to make him - and his parents - feel at ease, knowing that they might feel tense (for different reasons)*. It’s a shame that you do not appear to show the same flexibility in your thinking. It’s not all about you.

* this happened at a weekend gathering of friends some years ago. The parents were not happy about their son wanting to wear a princess dress. All of us embraced the idea, allowing the young lad to be himself. His parents learned something that weekend.
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Re: Mum lets son wear dress to her wedding

Post by Stu »

Ray wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:05 pm
Our wedding, our rules.
That's precisely my point, Ray. Your rules prevail at your own wedding.

You are also a Scot for whom the kilt is an entirely natural garment to wear for an occasion - it is even within the bounds of convention. That doesn't quite compare to dressing up a 7-year-old boy in full bridesmaid garb. The whole point of that outfit is that it emphasises traditional femininity.
Ray wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:05 pm
It’s a shame that you do not appear to show the same flexibility in your thinking.
How am I not being flexible? If a lad wanted to wear a kilt then I would be fine with that. I would, however, be concerned that any boy beyond toddlerhood who had a strong desire to attend a wedding effectively crossdressing in the ultimate feminine way. Why does he have that desire? What will others make of it (yes, I would care about that) and what would happen to the myriad of photographs that would inevitably be taken by all and sundry. These are natural concerns, not inflexible thinking.
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Re: Mum lets son wear dress to her wedding

Post by Fred in Skirts »

Stu wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:24 am
I think for toddlers, it shouldn't be an issue what they wear and, if it's possible to let them choose to appear as a page or bridesmaid, let them. I think when they reach five or six, their gender identity is becoming established within themselves and also with friends and families. Consequently, I would say for a formal even like a wedding, where conventions are especially important, the default position should be to follow gender norms and departing from those should be gently discouraged. I admit I would be uncomfortable if a seven-year-old boy in my family wanted to attend a wedding in the full bridesmaid garb, or a girl of that age wanted to wear a boy's suit, shirt and tie.
Stu, Why would it bother you?? To me it would depend on what the child wants even if the child is sixteen years old.. I would not be uncomfortable with what ever the child wants and the parents allow.

There was a funeral here where the son of the man in the coffin was dressed in a black dress and no one said anything about it he was about twelve or so. I saw nothing wrong..
Fred :kiltdance:

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Re: Mum lets son wear dress to her wedding

Post by Ray »

Stu

1. I’ll rephrase my cited comment. Our wedding, our relaxation of rules. I would have hoped that the following sentence (imperfect, as I dictated it) would have added weight to this, but evidently not.

2. I’m a Scot, yes. My English friends are not. Their wearing of kilts (one of which was a black non-tartan kilt) is certainly not a cultural norm. Your comment about my being Scottish misses the point. As I stated, one English man word a kilted skirt. That’s not the same as a bridesmaid’s dress (aka “a dress”) but it’s heading in that direction. It’s certainly not culturally normal.

3. Your comments in response to my suggestion of inflexibility merely accentuates your inflexibility of thinking in my view. Perhaps I might more fairly state your attitude as socially ingrained. Wrong, but it’s not your fault. If a young lad wanted to wear a dress at our wedding, I’d support it - and his parents - as my footnote demonstrates. I’d also be happy with photos - but that is for the parents to decide, not me (or my wife). You are not as open minded by your admission. Fair enough.

Regards

Ray
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Re: Mum lets son wear dress to her wedding

Post by Stu »

Fred in Skirts wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:22 pm
Stu, Why would it bother you?? To me it would depend on what the child wants even if the child is sixteen years old.. I would not be uncomfortable with what ever the child wants and the parents allow.
Fred - a boy of seven wanting to wear a bridesmaid's dress is beyond simply a sartorial choice; it strongly suggests he has a gender identity issue and a wedding is hardly the best occasion to announce that to others. If he doesn't have such issues, then his flouting of convention at an occasion built upon and steeped in convention may be considered perverse at best. It would attract questions and concerns from attendees, possibly derision and humiliation which he may not live down for many years and detract attention from the bride on her special day.

I would champion the right of a boy to wear a skirt for school, or a dress when walking in the park and so on, but he would be doing so as a boy and not effectively crossdressing. To wear a bridesmaid's outfit as a wedding is to be a bridesmaid, which is something no male can ever be - the clue is in the word "maid". Let's stick to our realistic battles to expand clothing options for males of all ages but without trying to appropriate the extremes of femininity.
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