Nice article that mentions Skirtcafe favorably

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
Dust
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Re: Nice article that mentions Skirtcafe favorably

Post by Dust »

moonshadow wrote:
Dust wrote:Reconciling the mind should at least be an option on the table, but instead, it is illegal in some places. If this trend of outlawing therapy continues, we will never know how well this approach can work.
Careful there.... if you actually wear skirts, make no mistake, there are people out there that probably think you need "therapy" too!

Why don't we just let trans people live their lives in peace and leave them alone? They're not hurting anyone.
No one, let me repeat, no one, should ever be forced into treatments they don't want. Nor should they be given drugs, simply because they want them.

When I say "therapy", I'm referring to talk therapy. Sit down and talk to a mental health professional. If someone wants to work with a professional in this way, they should be able to. Everyone has stuff they need to talk through, even if it's just with a friend.

In most cases (and I think this is the way it should be) this is the first step, and part of determining what someone's underlying issues are, before trying something more drastic, like pharmaceuticals. Any psychiatrist who prescribes meds on their first visit with someone, is doing that person a disservice, whether it's antidepressants or cross-sex hormones.
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Re: Nice article that mentions Skirtcafe favorably

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Dust wrote:In most cases (and I think this is the way it should be) this is the first step, and part of determining what someone's underlying issues are, before trying something more drastic, like pharmaceuticals. Any psychiatrist who prescribes meds on their first visit with someone, is doing that person a disservice, whether it's antidepressants or cross-sex hormones.
In the U.K., transgender people aren't treated by a psychiatrist.  They do see a psychiatrist as part of the assessment process but this is just to rule out any possibility of a mental illness masquerading as transgender; once that possibility has been discounted, they are treated by a specialist doctor.  If they have a stress-related mental condition brought on by the way they have been treated in the past, this might be dealt with by a psychiatrist as a separate issue.

Things may be different in the U.S.
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Re: Nice article that mentions Skirtcafe favorably

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pelmut wrote:
Dust wrote:In most cases (and I think this is the way it should be) this is the first step, and part of determining what someone's underlying issues are, before trying something more drastic, like pharmaceuticals. Any psychiatrist who prescribes meds on their first visit with someone, is doing that person a disservice, whether it's antidepressants or cross-sex hormones.
In the U.K., transgender people aren't treated by a psychiatrist.  They do see a psychiatrist as part of the assessment process but this is just to rule out any possibility of a mental illness masquerading as transgender; once that possibility has been discounted, they are treated by a specialist doctor.  If they have a stress-related mental condition brought on by the way they have been treated in the past, this might be dealt with by a psychiatrist as a separate issue.

Things may be different in the U.S.
That’s more or less the same here. There are assessments required during the transition program, given the rather significant consequences of uncertainty.
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Re: Nice article that mentions Skirtcafe favorably

Post by stevelous »

I always find it funny that if a child feels they are transgender they are told they are too young to understand. However a child that feels they are the correct gender are believed and do understand. A double standard that belongs in the past.

I feel that any child should be allowed to make their own mind up, children are far more clued in than most adults when it comes to feelings. Perhaps a youngster may feel they are in the wrong body and wishes to present as the opposite one at that time. They may change their minds later, so puberty blockers may be needed whilst the young person makes a final decision, they need total support from all the people around them not pressure to conform to society and its 'rules'. In fact all children need the loving support of all those around them to become loving adults.
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Re: Nice article that mentions Skirtcafe favorably

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stevelous wrote:I always find it funny that if a child feels they are transgender they are told they are too young to understand. However a child that feels they are the correct gender are believed and do understand. A double standard that belongs in the past.

I feel that any child should be allowed to make their own mind up, children are far more clued in than most adults when it comes to feelings. Perhaps a youngster may feel they are in the wrong body and wishes to present as the opposite one at that time. They may change their minds later, so puberty blockers may be needed whilst the young person makes a final decision, they need total support from all the people around them not pressure to conform to society and its 'rules'. In fact all children need the loving support of all those around them to become loving adults.
Exactly. Well said, Stevelous.
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Re: Nice article that mentions Skirtcafe favorably

Post by Fred in Skirts »

One of the biggest problems these days is not wither the child is trans gender. gay or what ever. The problem lays at the feet of the mental health of the so called psychiatrists, that seem to think they are the only option for such young people with their mumbo jumbo and drugs. And with the parents who believe them.

Now don't get me wrong not all psychiatrists are bad I have known several who are really good at what they do and try to help their patients. I had one of the best in the state when I had a problem with being overworked and stressed out so bad that it was the only way to fix the problem. So if the doc is only looking for the money and making a big name for himself then steer clear.
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Re: Nice article that mentions Skirtcafe favorably

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stevelous wrote:I always find it funny that if a child feels they are transgender they are told they are too young to understand. However a child that feels they are the correct gender are believed and do understand. A double standard that belongs in the past.

I feel that any child should be allowed to make their own mind up, children are far more clued in than most adults when it comes to feelings. Perhaps a youngster may feel they are in the wrong body and wishes to present as the opposite one at that time. They may change their minds later, so puberty blockers may be needed whilst the young person makes a final decision, they need total support from all the people around them not pressure to conform to society and its 'rules'. In fact all children need the loving support of all those around them to become loving adults.
I find it funny (as in odd, curious, profoundly troubling) that children even have a conceptualisation of gender and a conceptualisation that their bodies and their selves can be considered separate things, separate even to the point that their spirit-self-whatever could be in the "wrong" body.
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Re: Nice article that mentions Skirtcafe favorably

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Daryl wrote:I find it funny (as in odd, curious, profoundly troubling) that children even have a conceptualisation of gender and a conceptualisation that their bodies and their selves can be considered separate things, separate even to the point that their spirit-self-whatever could be in the "wrong" body.
It would seem odd at first, if you had been brought up to believe something different (which most of us were) and, yes, it is definitely curious and provokes a desire for further learning - but I can't see why it should be profoundly troubling or even troubling at all.  The child will be troubled if people who should know better keep telling it something it can see for itself isn't true, but to adults it is just another step in the learning process as we find out more about the World around us.
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Re: Nice article that mentions Skirtcafe favorably

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pelmut wrote:
Daryl wrote:I find it funny (as in odd, curious, profoundly troubling) that children even have a conceptualisation of gender and a conceptualisation that their bodies and their selves can be considered separate things, separate even to the point that their spirit-self-whatever could be in the "wrong" body.
It would seem odd at first, if you had been brought up to believe something different (which most of us were) and, yes, it is definitely curious and provokes a desire for further learning - but I can't see why it should be profoundly troubling or even troubling at all.  The child will be troubled if people who should know better keep telling it something it can see for itself isn't true, but to adults it is just another step in the learning process as we find out more about the World around us.
I find it troubling that we tell children that they and their bodies are separate, or that we act is if mind and body are not one thing. This applies equally in my mind to parents who would tell a child that they are the "right" gender inside as to parents who would say that a child is the "wrong" gender inside. Both conceptualisations are errors, and lead to the mess and morass of pain we are seeing today.

Your problem, Pelmut, is that you are used to arguing with essentialists and determinists, and I am neither. I forgive you your patronising nonetheless.
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Re: Nice article that mentions Skirtcafe favorably

Post by pelmut »

Daryl wrote:I find it troubling that we tell children that they and their bodies are separate, or that we act is if mind and body are not one thing.
Why won't you accept the idea that some parts of our minds are not always determined by our bodies?  Put aside any explanations involving social convention, scripture and the law, they have often failed to keep up with knowledge based on facts.
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Re: Nice article that mentions Skirtcafe favorably

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pelmut wrote:
Daryl wrote:I find it troubling that we tell children that they and their bodies are separate, or that we act is if mind and body are not one thing.
Why won't you accept the idea that some parts of our minds are not always determined by our bodies?  Put aside any explanations involving social convention, scripture and the law, they have often failed to keep up with knowledge based on facts.
"Knowledge based on facts." Don't make me laugh. A narrative based on the facts that affirm it, is more apt.

Why won't you accept the idea that mind and body are intrinsically connected, inseparable in fact? The entire idea that a mind merely inhabits a body is what I am challenging, and you are missing that. The idea that a person can be in the "wrong" body is based on that very religious idea. Interesting that you sought to limit my response to exclude the religious, since your core thesis in fact depends upon a religious assumption.

You've made the false assumption that I think that "some parts of our minds" are "always determined by our bodies", and based a challenging question to me based on that. That is what is known as a "straw man", an invalid debating technique. This after I've told you that I am not a determinist (nor an essentialist). Your whole posture that those who disagree with you simply haven't "kept up" or are in need of being educated doesn't bode well for the possibility of real exploration with you. Certainty and the presumption of moral authority are characteristics of preachers.
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Re: Nice article that mentions Skirtcafe favorably

Post by pelmut »

Daryl wrote:Why won't you accept the idea that mind and body are intrinsically connected, inseparable in fact? The entire idea that a mind merely inhabits a body is what I am challenging, and you are missing that. The idea that a person can be in the "wrong" body is based on that very religious idea.
I have certainly been missing something here and I think that when we consider the third point of the  Sex - Gender - Society triangle, we might come a lot nearer to agreement.

When a baby is assigned a Sex at birth, it is assigned far more than just a medical description of its genitals.  Society, which includes parents, relations, teachers, religion and the law, all use Sex to assign a person to the artificial categories they have created for convenience.  Children are brought up to know their place in society from the way the rest of society treats them, they are put in boxes and told what they can and can't do because of the Sex they were assigned at birth.

Some of these children grow up to feel they have been put in the wrong boxes; for the lucky ones, this is merely a discomfort that makes it difficult to fit in with the life they know they are supposed to be leading (according to society), for others it is such a strong feeling that it makes their life completely unbearable and they a faced with the choice of either transition or suicide.  By 'transition' I mean doing something that will get them assigned by society to the boxes where they feel they belong.  They don't do this on a whim, they agonise about it, sometime for decades.

All this misery stems from one simple mistake: not their assignment at birth but society's interpretation of that assignment.   Change of assigned Sex on a birth certificate and a new name would only partly solve the problem, society expects a certain type of bodily appearance so that they can neatly drop each person they meet into a convenient box.  Society also includes the person themself, they would like to fit in with these expectations too; not only would they be addressed and treated the way they prefer, they would also feel a lot happier about their own body.  This is what the shorthand "born in the wrong body" is really about, it is a quick way of summarising the situation for the layman but it isn't accepted as accurate by quite a lot of transpeople.

The only form of 'transition' used to be full genital reconstruction and beginning a new life well away from anyone who might know your past.  It was then found that, as society became more enlightened, most post-transition transpeople didn't need to hide away and could continue to work in their previous jobs and keep most of their friends (at least, those who were real friends to start with).  We now appear to be entering a new phase (in the U.K. and some parts of the U.S.) where the surgery is not essential in every case and some transpeople find they can manage without it -- as long as society can manage too.

So the real culprit is not the transperson's body, but the way society (including the transperson themself) has been brought up to respond to it.
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Re: Nice article that mentions Skirtcafe favorably

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pelmut wrote:So the real culprit is not the transperson's body, but the way society (including the transperson themself) has been brought up to respond to it.
Let's not forget that what it means to be a woman in this day and age is different from what it was 50 years ago, and what it means to be a man is vastly different. Women are becoming more masculine by the week, and men are being pushed deeply into the realm of machismo, which if they have a lick of ethics and know how to behave disgusts them -- but they have no other avenues of expression. This is definitely society at work -- and at its worst.

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Re: Nice article that mentions Skirtcafe favorably

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pelmut wrote:
Daryl wrote:Why won't you accept the idea that mind and body are intrinsically connected, inseparable in fact? The entire idea that a mind merely inhabits a body is what I am challenging, and you are missing that. The idea that a person can be in the "wrong" body is based on that very religious idea.
I have certainly been missing something here and I think that when we consider the third point of the  Sex - Gender - Society triangle, we might come a lot nearer to agreement.

When a baby is assigned a Sex at birth, it is assigned far more than just a medical description of its genitals.  Society, which includes parents, relations, teachers, religion and the law, all use Sex to assign a person to the artificial categories they have created for convenience.  Children are brought up to know their place in society from the way the rest of society treats them, they are put in boxes and told what they can and can't do because of the Sex they were assigned at birth.

Some of these children grow up to feel they have been put in the wrong boxes; for the lucky ones, this is merely a discomfort that makes it difficult to fit in with the life they know they are supposed to be leading (according to society), for others it is such a strong feeling that it makes their life completely unbearable and they a faced with the choice of either transition or suicide.  By 'transition' I mean doing something that will get them assigned by society to the boxes where they feel they belong.  They don't do this on a whim, they agonise about it, sometime for decades.

All this misery stems from one simple mistake: not their assignment at birth but society's interpretation of that assignment.   Change of assigned Sex on a birth certificate and a new name would only partly solve the problem, society expects a certain type of bodily appearance so that they can neatly drop each person they meet into a convenient box.  Society also includes the person themself, they would like to fit in with these expectations too; not only would they be addressed and treated the way they prefer, they would also feel a lot happier about their own body.  This is what the shorthand "born in the wrong body" is really about, it is a quick way of summarising the situation for the layman but it isn't accepted as accurate by quite a lot of transpeople.

The only form of 'transition' used to be full genital reconstruction and beginning a new life well away from anyone who might know your past.  It was then found that, as society became more enlightened, most post-transition transpeople didn't need to hide away and could continue to work in their previous jobs and keep most of their friends (at least, those who were real friends to start with).  We now appear to be entering a new phase (in the U.K. and some parts of the U.S.) where the surgery is not essential in every case and some transpeople find they can manage without it -- as long as society can manage too.

So the real culprit is not the transperson's body, but the way society (including the transperson themself) has been brought up to respond to it.
Now maybe we're making progress. The obvious answer, then, would be to tackle the real culprit, and change society's views and expectations based on sex. No more telling girls it's unladylike to race cars, or boys it's unmanly to wear skirts.

Sorted.

Some people, it seems, would rather invent a myth of a phantasm called "gender", then get a bunch of kids to sit around making up lists of the varieties there can be, with names and sets of pronouns for each one, then tell all our children, via sex ed. curricula in schools, that they can engage in body modification to fit with the "gender" they like, and that their parents might have given them the wrong body at birth. (Because who else gives you your body? It's pretty much your parents or God, and God isn't allowed anymore, being an off-fashion phantasm as He is, not to mention infallible.)

We are in fact tackling that real culprit, and very rapidly too, considering it is a society-wide change. The whole "gender" idea seems rather more a distraction from and even harmful to that project. I say we put "gender" in the circular bin, along with the puberty blocker drugs Santa gave some of our kids for Xmas, and reserve the "trans" words for people with such serious disorders that body modification is the last resort medically.
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Re: Nice article that mentions Skirtcafe favorably

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crfriend wrote:
pelmut wrote:So the real culprit is not the transperson's body, but the way society (including the transperson themself) has been brought up to respond to it.
Let's not forget that what it means to be a woman in this day and age is different from what it was 50 years ago, and what it means to be a man is vastly different. Women are becoming more masculine by the week, and men are being pushed deeply into the realm of machismo, which if they have a lick of ethics and know how to behave disgusts them -- but they have no other avenues of expression. This is definitely society at work -- and at its worst.

Let's let people be people -- without tags or pigeon-holes.
Let's let people be people, without imbuing their labels or pigeonholes with too much excess meaning.

With regard to women becoming more masculine and men being pushed to machismo; both effects are real, I think, but these are not the only responses to modern dogmas on gender and power.

Women are being pushed to be either masculine or hyperfeminine, with anything in-between risking being traditional, which means being a victim of traditional femininity, which is just a tool of the patriarchy. Dyke and slut are both fashionably acceptable, but a "traditional mom" is viewed as not even wanting to "have it all".

Men are being pushed to being either hypermasculine or as un-masculine as possible. The message to men is "muscle up, don't shave, and get a big black truck; or affect a slightly fey manner of speech and a youthful androgyny." Dumb macho men and slightly fey boys are unlikely to be seen as serious threats, so they are safe things to be. They allow men to either ignore or disown the accusations leveled at men as a class today. Hearty barbarian laughter and velvet-voiced confessions of vulnerability; those are your tickets to approval, men.
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