The Guardian - More men should wear skirts

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.

Re: The Guardian - More men should wear skirts

Postby Grok » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:59 pm

STEVIE wrote:Sartorial boundaries for men will only diminish if we push them back and don't wait for permission either.
One web site-fashionfreestyler.com-had an interesting article about "rubber band boundaries". Unfortunately, I am having trouble finding the web site now.
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Re: The Guardian - More men should wear skirts

Postby andrewsh » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:20 pm

Stu wrote:Arwa Mahdawi, however, is a radical feminist with a very different agenda. To those of her ideological persuasion, masculinity is something toxic to be eschewed. She sees herself as a victim of a largely imaginary oppressive societal group called "the patriarchy" which is fuelled by the masculinity she hates. Anything she says in her writing is an expression of that view and she has precisely zero interest in extending male's choices to give men and boys something closer to sartorial equality with women and girls. Now, however, there are some feminists who have started adopting a strategy to defeat masculinity by feminising men as a means of eradicating the hated masculinity. To achieve that, they portray men not as people for whom masculinity is a natural human trait exhibited by men, but as something limiting. They seek to tell men that we are victims of own masculinity. We mustn't fall for it.

Wow, sorry to say this, but this is a load of nonsense. Arwa is definitely not a "radical feminist", whatever that is, just go and read her column. You’re confusing masculinity as such with toxic masculinity, which is a whole different concept. Patriarchy, believe it or not, is a thing and a society we live in, and it oppresses both men and women because of how it works. I’m not even going to comment on the rest of this paragraph because of how far it is from the reality.
Stu wrote:Mahdawi and her ilk are not seeking to liberate us, but to diminish us. Men wearing skirts is not a feminist issue: it's a men's rights issue and we must not let her beloved sisterhood hijack it.

No. Men wearing skirts is a feminist issue. Men rights is feminism issue. Feminism is about equality and liberation from oppression.
You need to educate yourself about what feminism is and isn’t before you post such statements.
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Re: The Guardian - More men should wear skirts

Postby Stu » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:43 pm

The very phrase "toxic masculinity" would, if rephrased in respect of any other demographic group, be considered as hate speech. For example: young black men are disproportionately responsible for offences of mugging in certain UK cities - now imagine the uproar if someone suggested that "toxic blackness" is a thing. This is identity politics of the worst kind. People are individuals, not simply elements within a collective.

The notion of the "patriarchy" in modern western societies is a ridiculous myth. It does not stand up to scrutiny and falls apart when critically examined. It is just another manifestation of feminist misandry.

What men choose to wear is a matter exclusively for men. Feminists like the writer of this tosh would recoil if men tried to dictate what women should be wearing.

I don't need education on this issue - and certainly not from you. Has it ever occurred to you that you have been suckered in to believing that what is effectively a hate cult is far from the benign movement interested in gender equality which you seem to imagine?
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Re: The Guardian - More men should wear skirts

Postby new2skirts » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:02 pm

Stu wrote:The very phrase "toxic masculinity" would, if rephrased in respect of any other demographic group, be considered as hate speech. For example: young black men are disproportionately responsible for offences of mugging in certain UK cities - now imagine the uproar if someone suggested that "toxic blackness" is a thing. This is identity politics of the worst kind. People are individuals, not simply elements within a collective.

The notion of the "patriarchy" in modern western societies is a ridiculous myth. It does not stand up to scrutiny and falls apart when critically examined. It is just another manifestation of feminist misandry.

What men choose to wear is a matter exclusively for men. Feminists like the writer of this tosh would recoil if men tried to dictate what women should be wearing.

I don't need education on this issue - and certainly not from you. Has it ever occurred to you that you have been suckered in to believing that what is effectively a hate cult is far from the benign movement interested in gender equality which you seem to imagine?


Regarding young black men, some do use the excuse of being singled out is due to their colour. Sadly it's more likely due to the lock knife in their trouser pocket. If you do try the "race card" it can get you put in the back of the police van quicker than just standing there. A lot of black boys have limited opportunities, sometimes due to prejudice, poor education system, are from single parent or low income families, and the draw of easy money by joining a gang is more appealing than KFC or McDonalds and working your way up, or applying yourself in school.

As regards men's fashion, it is increasingly common to read of men wearing skirts to, erm, skirt round restrictive laws in the workplace (usually no shorts), especially in a heatwave. We know the practicality of skirts and don't mind the accessories that come with them, but to most guys, shorts and trousers are more practical (pockets, not sitting carefully), probably the same reason fewer women wear skirts. I couldn't see a man carrying an additional bag because skirt pockets are too small or non existent.

Sadly the Trans lobby has jumped on this so it will be hard to convince your regular bloke, even those builders in dresses more than likely did it for a laugh, especially if they had access to shorts instead. Kilts, although fashionable, are too expensive and managing pleats can be a pain... denim pencil skirts are a good start, some have useable pockets, and cargo skirts can look good enough. For fairly new skirters, you rarely get more than double takes, nothing shocks people anymore.

But unless pricing improves, or more celebrities (apart from unhinged rappers, or those percieved to be transitioning like Eddie Izzard), I doubt many men will take up skirts. Talking of taking up skirts, when nature calls, that could be quite a sight in a few years' time at the urinal if the fashion takes off :shock: dealing with tights will annoy most men as well. Best we could hope for is denim and chino skirts, worn casually with scrunched down socks and boots :roll:

Also, how will the women feel? They may not like it on "their man"... :blue:
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Re: The Guardian - More men should wear skirts

Postby Stu » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:17 pm

new2skirts

Yes, I agree about black boys. Too often, they are raised by single mothers with no father or other male role model on the scene.

I also agree that the resistance to men's skirts is still strong and there is little sign of that changing any time soon. Denim skirts could easily be made unisex and there is nothing inherently feminine about denim.
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Re: The Guardian - More men should wear skirts

Postby andrewsh » Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:19 am

Stu wrote:The very phrase "toxic masculinity" would, if rephrased in respect of any other demographic group, be considered as hate speech. <…>

Let me quote Arwa herself:
Arwa Mahdawi wrote:I shouldn’t have to say this, it should be obvious, but “toxic masculinity” doesn’t mean that men are toxic or that masculinity is de facto toxic. Rather, it means that extreme forms of traits traditionally associated with masculinity, like aggression and stoicism, are toxic. Rightwingers, however, like to pretend the phrase is an attack on men because it’s a quick way of derailing a conversation about rigid gender norms, and allows them to pretend that feminism is some sort of plot against men.

You seem to be forgetting fixed expressions often mean something slightly different than the words they’re written with.

Stu wrote:The notion of the "patriarchy" in modern western societies is a ridiculous myth. It does not stand up to scrutiny and falls apart when critically examined. It is just another manifestation of feminist misandry.

Closing your eyes to the reality doesn’t make it go away. Patriarchy has been around for many centuries, and it is still here.

Stu wrote:I don't need education on this issue - and certainly not from you. Has it ever occurred to you that you have been suckered in to believing that what is effectively a hate cult is far from the benign movement interested in gender equality which you seem to imagine?

Well, I’m a feminist, so I think I have a say on this topic. Speaking of hate, so far I have only seen hate from you but not from your opponents you like attach labels to so much. You really need to learn more about feminism since your understanding of it seems to be seriously skewed.
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Re: The Guardian - More men should wear skirts

Postby Grok » Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:48 am

Stu wrote:I also agree that the resistance to men's skirts is still strong and there is little sign of that changing any time soon. Denim skirts could easily be made unisex and there is nothing inherently feminine about denim.
I would consider denim skirts a success if their status became similar to kilting in Seattle-going from virtually nonexistent, to accepted but rare.
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Re: The Guardian - More men should wear skirts

Postby Stu » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:17 am

andrewsh

If you are attributing aggression and stoicism etc to masculinity, then the implication is that these are exclusively, or at least heavily predominantly, masculine features. They are not. In the case of aggression, males are physically considerably stronger on average, but that is biology. Aggression is not necessarily something "toxic" either. Great acts of heroism were accomplished through the application of determination and explosive power that arises from aggression. Females also exhibit aggression. As for stoicism, that the opposite of toxic. Stoicism gives rise to forgiveness, acceptance and even contentment. It has noble antecedents which can be traced back to the school of Hellenistic philosophy well over 2,000 years ago. The notion that stoicism is abhorrent is so absurd that only a feminist could have entertained such a notion. By the way, I never forget that fixed expressions, by which I assume you mean idioms, do not carry the meaning of the lexemes that constitute them; I have taught cognitive linguistics.

The belief in the patriarchy in modern western culture is essentially a statement of faith. It bears no relation to reality. Modern western women are the most privileged and pampered demographic in human history. Try this thought experiment. Make a list of all the rights that you enjoy now as a male that you would forego had you been born female. I will be happy to provide you a list of the converse.

I am sorry you have decided you are a feminist, but I guess you can stick any label on yourself that you like. As for me learning about your particular cult, I have studied the topic and read the works of many of its leading figures, from Wollstonecraft to Dworkin and I have realised that the later the wave, the greater the misandry. We are now at the stage at which many women no longer wish to be tarred with this brush, including some who called themselves feminists and some who refer to themselves as "equity feminists" (I.e. moderates who are essentially egalitarian). A recent study by the Fawcett Society (a feminist organisation) showed that today a mere 9% of women in the UK would call themselves feminists.
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Re: The Guardian - More men should wear skirts

Postby mishawakaskirt » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:02 pm

Stu wrote:Beware of False Friends!

Why should men wear skirts? In my view, we should be able to wear them to extend our otherwise ridiculously and unnecessarily limited fashion options. As straight men who have no inclination towards crossdressing, skirts are either a strongly masculinity-enhancing choice, as with such as Utilikilts, or at the very least a neutral and practical option, as we might find with unisex garments such as those sold by Skirtcraft.

Arwa Mahdawi, however, is a radical feminist with a very different agenda. To those of her ideological persuasion, masculinity is something toxic to be eschewed. She sees herself as a victim of a largely imaginary oppressive societal group called "the patriarchy" which is fuelled by the masculinity she hates. Anything she says in her writing is an expression of that view and she has precisely zero interest in extending male's choices to give men and boys something closer to sartorial equality with women and girls. Now, however, there are feminists who have started adopting a strategy to defeat masculinity by feminising men as a means of eradicating the hated masculinity. To achieve that, they portray men not as people for whom masculinity is a natural human trait exhibited by men, but as something limiting. They seek to tell men that we are victims of own masculinity. We mustn't fall for it.

Mahdawi and her ilk are not seeking to liberate us, but to diminish us. Men wearing skirts is not a feminist issue: it's a men's rights issue and we must not let her beloved sisterhood hijack it.

Stu
.

I kinda got the same vibe, masculine men are under attack. The most recent reincarnation of feminists seems to want to do away with masculinity and men.
If science ever figures out how to cheaply make babies without the male donors, have it their way the radical feminists will want to eliminate men.

Till then they will just keep chipping away at masculinity.

If we are to remain men and want to take up the skirt while doing so, we need to do it in our masculine way, not take on society's misconceptions. Or we might as well hand over our balls now.

It is not, but why does society make the skirt into such a magical piece of clothing?
Are they spun using magical unicorn poop and fary saliva?
No, most commonly the same material our trousers are made out of. Why is it when a man puts on a skirt he magicaly you becomes a woman, or wishes to be one?
When I put on a skirt, my voice doesn't get higher, my junk doesn't vanish. I'm still a man in every aspect. I can do everything in a skirt that I can do in trousers. The skirts only flaw is the loss of modesty while doing some activities. Wearing a skirt doesn't make us any less of a man.

Women have worn trousers for decades and their boobs have not fallen off. It's safe gentlemen your twig and berries won't fall off.

We just need to make it (the skirt our own)
Mishawakaskirt @2wayskirt on Twitter

Avoid the middle man, wear a kilt or skirt.
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