Another reason I hate Tennessee

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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby BobM » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:27 pm

Very well said, Mr Greenboots.
OD & RE, PCA
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby crfriend » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:26 pm

BobM wrote:If there is no God, then what is the foundation of civil law? If there is no God, then the civil law is only a matter of opinion, and who can claim the right of enforcement of opinion? People, ignorant ones anyway, like to claim that you can't legislate morality, but that is exactly what the greater part of the body of civil law does. Why is murder punishable if it is only a matter of opinion whether or not it is wrong, and why is someone else's opinion of right and wrong worth more than mine? No, there is a law outside of ourselves that applies to all men at all times. We can all agree, maybe, that murder is wrong, but why is it wrong if it is only a matter of opinion?

To properly consider this, we must not rely on "morality" alone which is complicated, and sometimes corrupted, by assorted religions, but must also rely on ethics. In many instances, these two notions align very closely, and, indeed, what we were taught as children to be "The Golden Rule" holds fast for both. For the most part, the two align almost perfectly save for the interference of faith. I've seen it presented that, "Ethics are how one behaves when nobody is watching." That's a powerful statement. Blind faith opens many holes and cracks in the proper application of ethics. So, I would posit that civil law is based not on "morals" but on ethical behaviour -- and, properly applied, ethics cut across assorted religions.
Consider information. Brother Friend, you will like this. Where does information come from? Does information create itself? Can a blank book fill itself in, or does it require an outside agency? Do computer programs write themselves out of thin air, or is a programmer required? What is DNA, but stored information? Information can not create itself because information is required to create information.

Information can be discovered, it can be created by intelligence, and at its simplest can be created by chance. It can also be altered by outside forces such as uncovering additional information that was not at hand when forming an opinion, but, in the case of DNA, can be altered randomly by mutations occurring either through errors of replication or by way of direct interference, e.g. radiation effects. An altered instance of DNA can then be advantageous to an organism or it can be a detriment; it the mutation is advantageous, it will stand a stronger probability of persisting in nature than if it's detrimental. In the case of DNA, this is documented and observed as fact. It's called "evolution". It's fact that computer programs do not create themselves, but are rather written by humans; however, programs can modify themselves based on given situations. Programs can "learn" things so long as the memory systems remain operational and the original programming allowed for it.

On the notion of "chance", it's worth noting that the only truly "random" artefact that we seem to have in the universe at the moment is spontaneous decay of radioactive particles. Computers are truly awful at generating "random numbers" -- approaching pseudo-random at best; nature remains our best source of entropy. Most genetic mutation depends on either radiation or replication error. So, in many aspects our universe depends on chaos; once the universe is completely ordered it will be unimaginably cold and life as we know it will have long since ceased to exist -- along with all the gods that life has concocted in an attempt to explain what seems unexplainable.

In this, is there a place for faith? I will categorically state, "Yes". It is perfect for everybody involved? "No", and that largely depends on the type of faith one is dealing with.
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby STEVIE » Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:52 am

crfriend wrote:"Therefore, make peace with your god, //Whatever you perceive him to be - hairy thunderer, or cosmic muffin."


I hope that this isn't stating the obvious but it is one of my favourite pieces.
I first found it in the seventies from a song and feel there is much that we can take from it.
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"Desiderata
GO PLACIDLY amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism.
Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be. And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."
By Max Ehrmann © 1927
Original text
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby dillon » Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:47 am

Hey, guys...it was just a MEME...despite the fact that is was pretty VALID. But don't hate me, Christians...not yet. I never stated that there is no God. I believe in a Creator, of sorts, just not the jealous, punitive, sin-focused God that "devout" men demand I accept. Like America's Founding Fathers, I am a "cosmic deist." The current popular style of evangelical theology did not even exist in their time. They would not have recognized today's "Godliness." The concept of the "personal Jesus "would have been as alien to them as gravitational physics, the very seed of which had barely sprouted. This rather ambiguous view of God, I believe, allowed the clarity of thought that produced the bedrock of modern democracy...from which your right to worship emerged.

I see it as pretty obvious to anyone yet capable of employing a critical eye, that the existence of a, or any, Spiritual Divinity is not a problem to the human race. The problem that plagues humanity is the absolutely absurd THEOLOGY that always accompanies faith, and which, despite all claims to the contrary, is a purely HUMAN CONSTRUCT. Theology serves no other purpose beyond the perpetuation of all-consuming power structures. After all, like a basic business model, a faith that doesn't grow its following is essentially dying, just as is a business that doesn't grow its customer base. And that is the basis for theology of all sorts.

Theology could well be defined as "the art of preying on primal human fear of the unknown in order to enhance the authority of ecclesiastics who do not essentially abide with the Scriptural rhetoric they preach." Do any of you really believe humanity is getting smarter - or more "Godly" - as theologies becomes more insistent on their own infallibility? Theological leaders can fire you up, not because they have anointed a Savior, but because they point fingers at a set of ENEMIES. And that "leadership" is made easy, not by the promise of ultimate enlightenment, but, alternatively, by the threat of permanent damnation.

Think about it.
As a matter of fact, the sun DOES shine out of my ...
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby oldsalt1 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:48 am

Dillion I am trying to read your posts based on the intent and context without falling prey to your verbiage

But when you use all inclusive phrases such as "ANYONE YET CAPABLE " and "DO ANY OF YOU"" you are basically saying that if one doesn't agree with exactly what you expound they are stupid

Again what you say is a well thought out , extremely intelligent expression of your opinions . But sometimes the way you present it starts you off with 2 strikes
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby moonshadow » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:06 am

To pull this back on topic...

I've been following the Fritts story and it looks like the general masses, including a good number of Tennesseeans assigned Mr. Fritts to the proverbial "social looney bin" where he belongs. He has joined the ranks of Westboro Baptist Church.

Yep.... Mr Fritts said loudly and proudly "I HATE A DAMNED FAGGOT!"

And the rest of the nation said "awww bless your heart...." and turned and walked away.

Life is good. :mrgreen:
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby Ray » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:34 pm

Moon, that’s a good result.

Dillon - I understood what you said, and it’s a good distinction you make (gods/deities, as distinct from the constructs that humanity puts around them). Thought-provoking.
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby Dust » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:52 am

crfriend wrote:It's down to a matter of degree and approach. Not all can survive in a world without a god. To be honest, it can be a terrifying place,especially with what counts as "humanity" in some parts of the world. However, this is not grounds for a select set of believers to jam their particular dogma down the throats of either other believers who don't share the same dogma or non-believers. Unfortunately, the latter seems to be the up-and-coming way in many places around the world.

There is good reason why in a non-uniform population the governing system must be secular: if it's not, it's going to disenfranchise and alienate everybody who does not believe the dogma of the rulers, and that tends to destroy countries. In fairly homogeneous populations (e.g. Japan) intermingling faith with governance can work so long as it's done judiciously. In non-homogeneous populations (e.g. the United States and Europe) intermingling faith and governance is nothing but trouble. In the US, this was recognised early on and is the basis for the 1st amendment to the Constitution; that it's contained in an amendment -- an appendix if you will -- and that it does not also enshrine freedom from religion represent two of the fundamental mistakes of the original drafters (there are numerous others).

It's not so much about faith versus rationalism, it's about whether the two can agree to not impose their will on the other. It's about respect. Can the two coexist? I posit, "Yes", based on personal experience -- but the parties have to "agree to disagree" on some matters which, hopefully, is possible for adults.


We used to refer to the United States government as being the "American experiment" because nothing like it had ever been attempted before or since. Many compromises were included in the US Constitution as it was originally drafted, in order to get it ratified.* The Bill of Rights (the first ten amendments) was not included originally because of fears that anything left out would then be fair game for the government to trample on. They also did not want to endorse the idea that rights came from government (and thus could be taken away by said government), rather than from a higher power.

Despite the fact the religious issues were mostly left out of our founding documents, things like the following made it into the original, unamended Constitution:
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

In reality, the amount that they got right is stunning. They foresaw so much, yet missed key things. Still, no other nation has ever come close to what they created. No government is perfect.** But so many problems were anticipated and countered with a system of checks and balances to keep the inevitable corruption at bay.

Freedom from religion, as you and others like to put it, was never going to fly at the time, nor should it ever. Countries have tried that since, and it always results in genocide. Take as an example the tens of millions of their own people who died under the Soviets. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn famously relayed the explanation: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened."

Reason is not the opposite of religion. Claiming that faith and reason are opposed to one another has been proven false for centuries. Monasteries served as centers of learning and the base model of the modern university. Many great scientists throughout history have been men of God. Even today, many will tell you that their faith and their scientific work are not in contradiction. Some have even come to believe through their studies of science. Faith and reason must in fact work together. Anything else will be disastrous.


*The most infamous is the fractional counting of the slave populations towards representation in the legislature (House of Representatives). Ironically, the slaveholding southern states wanted them fully counted to boost their power in Congress, while the northern states did not want them counted at all, by the same logic. Yet the elimination of slavery was discussed at the time because they felt that slavery conflicted with the ideals they were founding the country on, but ultimately the issue was kicked down the road to future generations in the name of getting the new nation going at all.

**For example, a monarchy is an excellent form of government, so long as you have an excellent monarch. When the monarch gets replaced by someone else, all bets are off.
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby Dust » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:00 am

greenboots wrote:Can I recommend an antidote to the modern trend of insisting that religion and science are incompatible?

Thank you for doing so.
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby Dust » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:10 am

dillon wrote:Hey, guys...it was just a MEME...despite the fact that is was pretty VALID. But don't hate me, Christians...not yet. I never stated that there is no God. I believe in a Creator, of sorts, just not the jealous, punitive, sin-focused God that "devout" men demand I accept. Like America's Founding Fathers, I am a "cosmic deist." The current popular style of evangelical theology did not even exist in their time. They would not have recognized today's "Godliness." The concept of the "personal Jesus "would have been as alien to them as gravitational physics, the very seed of which had barely sprouted. This rather ambiguous view of God, I believe, allowed the clarity of thought that produced the bedrock of modern democracy...from which your right to worship emerged.

I see it as pretty obvious to anyone yet capable of employing a critical eye, that the existence of a, or any, Spiritual Divinity is not a problem to the human race. The problem that plagues humanity is the absolutely absurd THEOLOGY that always accompanies faith, and which, despite all claims to the contrary, is a purely HUMAN CONSTRUCT. Theology serves no other purpose beyond the perpetuation of all-consuming power structures. After all, like a basic business model, a faith that doesn't grow its following is essentially dying, just as is a business that doesn't grow its customer base. And that is the basis for theology of all sorts.

Theology could well be defined as "the art of preying on primal human fear of the unknown in order to enhance the authority of ecclesiastics who do not essentially abide with the Scriptural rhetoric they preach." Do any of you really believe humanity is getting smarter - or more "Godly" - as theologies becomes more insistent on their own infallibility? Theological leaders can fire you up, not because they have anointed a Savior, but because they point fingers at a set of ENEMIES. And that "leadership" is made easy, not by the promise of ultimate enlightenment, but, alternatively, by the threat of permanent damnation.

Think about it.

Sure, there have been those who used theology for their own personal gain. The European nobility who went Protestant, often did so in order to seize Church lands for themselves. Televangelists today make a killing off of preaching nonsense and asking for donations. But I would not use this to define "theology."

The truly great theologians often were contemplatives: monastics, monks, nuns, hermits, etc. They devoted their lives to prayer and fasting, as well as study. While they did this, they wrote what they learned, the insights they had. They gave the rest of us something to learn from, and to deepen our own understanding of, and thus our relationship with, the Devine. But it could be argued, that for most of the good ones, their closest personal relationship was with Jesus, starting with the apostles.
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby Kirbstone » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:35 am

Well put, Dust.
I'd like to think that the early monastic scribes and illustrators who produced the book of Kells (7th Century) and other similar tomes did so totally devoid of any greed or profit motive.

Tom
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby Fred in Skirts » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:55 am

A poll was taken of Anglican priests and only 68 of 200 Anglican priests polled could name all Ten Commandments, but half said they believed in space aliens.
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:whistle: Hi I am Fred and I wear skirts and dresses all of the time. :hooray:
"It is better to be hated for what you are than be loved for what you are not"
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby r.m.anderson » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:09 am

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

Ten Commandments

1.I am the Lord, your God.
2.Thou shall bring no false idols before me.
3.Do not take the name of the Lord in vain.
4.Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
5.Honor thy father and thy mother.
6.Thou shall not kill/murder.†
7.Thou shall not commit adultery.
8.Thou shall not steal.††
9.Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10.Thou shall not covet‡ your neighbor's wife (or anything that belongs to your neighbor).

† The Catholic Church uses the translation 'kill'.
†† Some within Judaism state that this is a reference to kidnapping, whereas Leviticus 19:11 is the Biblical reference forbidding the stealing of chattel. This interpretation is based on the Talmudical hermeneutic known as davar ha-lamed me-inyano (literally 'something proved by the context'); in this context, it is argued, that this must refer to a capital offense similar to the previous two commandments.
‡ More recent translations assert that "take" may be more accurate than "covet."

Division of the Ten Commandments by Religion & Denomination

Jewish (Talmudic)*
1.I am the Lord your God
2.You shall have no other gods before me
3.Do not take the name of the Lord in vain
4.Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
5.Honor your father and mother
6.You shall not kill/murder
7.You shall not commit adultery
8.You shall not steal
9.You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
10.You shall not covet your neighbor's wife


Anglican, Reformed, and other Christian

Preface: I am the Lord your God
1.You shall have no other gods before me
2.You shall not make for yourself an idol
3.Do not take the name of the Lord in vain
4.Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
5.Honor your father and mother
6.You shall not kill/murder
7.You shall not commit adultery
8.You shall not steal
9.You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
10.You shall not covet your neighbor's wife


Orthodox Christian
1.I am the Lord your God
2.You shall not make for yourself an idol
3.Do not take the name of the Lord in vain
4.Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
5.Honor your father and mother
6.You shall not kill/murder
7.You shall not commit adultery
8.You shall not steal
9.You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
10.You shall not covet your neighbor's wife


Catholic, Lutheran**
1.I am the Lord your God
2.Do not take the name of the Lord in vain
3.Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
4.Honor your father and mother
5.You shall not kill/murder
6.You shall not commit adultery
7.You shall not steal
8.You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
9.You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
10.You shall not covet‡ anything that belongs to your neighbor

Dead Sea Scrolls parchment containing the oldest known copy of the Ten Commandments
Parchment from the Dead Sea Scrolls containing the oldest copy of the Ten Commandments (Courtesy of Wikipedia)

* The "Talmudic Division" is the grouping used by modern Judaism, and dates back to the third century. The "Philonic Division", dating back to the first century, is taken from the texts of Philo and Josephus. In their writing the first commandment ends after verse 3 and has the second commandment as verses 4-6.
** Some Lutheran churches utilize a version which divides the Ninth and Tenth Commandments (9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house; 10. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his workers, or his cattle, or anything that is your neighbor's).


NOW WHAT PART OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND --- unless maybe you are an Atheist or Space Alien!
"Kilt-On" -or- as the case may be "Skirt-On" !
WHY ?
Isn't wearing a kilt enough?
Well a skirt will do in a pinch!
Make mine short and don't you dare think of pinching there !
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby Ray » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:39 am

...or a Buddhist, or a Zoroastrian, or Sikh, or Hindi, or....

(I’m an atheist - so I see them more as guidelines ;-) )
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby moonshadow » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:21 am

Ray wrote:...or a Buddhist, or a Zoroastrian, or Sikh, or Hindi, or....

(I’m an atheist - so I see them more as guidelines ;-) )


Americans aren't allowed to be openly atheist.... well, technically we are but it has the same social effect of a man wearing a skirt. In other words you're pretty much an outsider. Also you can't run for public office in certain states... Tennessee happens to be one of them.

I've known some atheists and agnostics (many say they agnostics are also atheists) and that is information they hold close to their chest.

My religious views are posted elsewhere. I assume I'd be labeled some kind of agnostic but like gender.... I'm not really sure.
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