Another reason I hate Tennessee

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BobM
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Post by BobM » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:35 pm

Ralph wrote:
BobM wrote:That is not ALL the Law, but the ceremonial Law, dietary laws, and so forth were specifically done away with by Jesus. The moral law, Commandments, and so forth still have full authority, and Christians are answerable to God for them.

All valid points, Bob, but that section specifically is the core of much theological dispute. One person says "I am guiltless for [behavior] because that law was ceremonial and is no longer relevant to those saved in Christ", while another person says "Christ never knew you because you are in violation of moral law."
Let me first say clearly that we are all, without exception, sinners. That said, the comments of Jesus in Matthew 7 are addressed not to sinners in general, but to those who fancy themselves saved, but are not. As someone else famously said, "There are two kinds of people in church's: Those who believe, and those who believe they believe". The latter group outnumbers the former. Both of the arguments you mention are invalid because neither comports with scripture. Those who advance such arguments betray their ignorance. Whether or not a person is in compliance with the moral law, and no one is, is irrelevant because saving faith is a gift of God bestowed on us without consideration of anything we do, or don't do. No one can earn it, no one can develop saving faith on his own because, as the scripture says, we are all "born dead in sin", and, "none is righteous, no, not one". That these quasi arguments are even advanced betrays the lack of sound teaching in churches today, especially the old "mainstream" churches.
What I tend to find is that legalists want to call everything moral law (apart from anything they do themselves), and apologists want to call everything ceremonial law (apart from the 10 Commandments). Can any human be trusted to speak with authority on which laws are still in effect? We're all biased and like to interpret scripture through our own lens.
Actually, yes. This is not a thorny theological problem intractable to human effort. We are admonished to, "search the scripture daily to see if these things are true". There is precious little scripture searching in most churches, let alone households. You are correct in that the preference is to interpret scripture through our own lens, but that leads only to confusion. Here is a true statement: for any passage of Scripture there is one, and only one, correct interpretation. There may be a hundred applications, but only one interpretation. The law of non- contradiction applies.

Don't even get me started on the tendency of most church bodies, even conservative/evangelical groups, to double down on homosexuality but say nary a word about divorce (adultery).
Some of the reasons they do that are:
1. They don't really believe the scripture is the Word of God.
2. They think God changes with the times even though he repeatedly says he doesn't.
3. They are part of the ones Jesus says he never knew.
4. They are just ignorant of what the scripture says, and gullible enough to believe whatever they are told.

There are more reasons, but you get the idea.
OD & RE, PCA

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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Post by dillon » Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:49 am

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As a matter of fact, the sun DOES shine out of my ...

Ray
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Post by Ray » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:38 am

Dillon

Exactly.

When you have individuals who literally interpret a work of fiction (the bible) in the face of scientific evidence to the contrary (see Creationism) without question, then one has to question the sanity of the individual in question.

I wish we didn’t make any references to religion here. It’s a divisive subject, and has no bearing on the vast majority of the people who live in my part of the world (UK) although I appreciate that the USA is curiously very religious. I’m happy to go with the wishes of the majority - but it worries me that there is so much reliance on what I see as (a) a fictional tome with fantasy characters and (b) adhering to the disagreements that arise from the interpretation of that tome.

I think I’m going to start quoting from Dumbledore - the Book of Wizarding! ;-)

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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Post by Dust » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:24 am

Here is a true statement: for any passage of Scripture there is one, and only one, correct interpretation. There may be a hundred applications, but only one interpretation. The law of non- contradiction applies.
Non-contradiction definitely applies, but a passage can have multiple meaning. Take Old Testament prophecy, for example. Much of it had an immediate meaning at the time, while also a deeper meaning that foretold something that Christ would do. This isn't contradictory, at all, but shows multiple meanings.

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oldsalt1
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Post by oldsalt1 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:53 am

[quote="Ray"]Dillon

Exactly.

When you have individuals who literally interpret a work of fiction (the bible) in the face of scientific evidence to the contrary (see Creationism) without question, then one has to question the sanity of the individual in question.

I wish we didn’t make any references to religion here. It’s a divisive subject, and has no bearing on the vast majority of the people who live in my part of the world (UK) although I appreciate that the USA is curiously very religious. I’m happy to go with the wishes of the majority - but it worries me that there is so much reliance on what I see as (a) a fictional tome with fantasy characters and (b) adhering to the disagreements that arise from the interpretation of that tome.

Ray what proof do you have that the bible is a work of fiction and that the so called fictional characters that you refer to didn't exist.

I would actually think you have no proof and you opinion is based in what you" BELIEVE" to be true.

Many people believe that the scientific evidence you tout does exist but that it was divinely directed.

As with any subject there is the middle ground and the extremes.

The possibility of reasonable discussion exists with those in the middle ground . If one is part of either extreme your views and set in concrete and nothing else exists

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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Post by Dust » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:36 pm

Ray wrote:When you have individuals who literally interpret a work of fiction (the bible) in the face of scientific evidence to the contrary (see Creationism) without question, then one has to question the sanity of the individual in question.

I wish we didn’t make any references to religion here. It’s a divisive subject, and has no bearing on the vast majority of the people who live in my part of the world (UK) although I appreciate that the USA is curiously very religious. I’m happy to go with the wishes of the majority - but it worries me that there is so much reliance on what I see as (a) a fictional tome with fantasy characters and (b) adhering to the disagreements that arise from the interpretation of that tome.

I think I’m going to start quoting from Dumbledore - the Book of Wizarding! ;-)
The Bible is not really one book, but the collected works of God's followers over the centuries. It includes the story of creation, works of poetry, letters of advice, and historical records. These records may not be written the way historians today would write, but nothing was back then. We have other records of many of the same events, and archeological evidence of some as well. To dismiss the Bible as just a "work of fiction" comes across as deliberately obtuse, and a blatent attempt at disrupting the conversation.

That was followed with a straw man (creationism) and an ad hominem attack (questioning people's sanity). The post ends with a flippant reference to modern fiction. Those mocking religion are the only ones I see here being divicive.

The discussion of Christian scripture is both relevant to the topic at hand (Tennessee preacher) and the wider topic of the forum (skirt wearing - some people condemn it based on scripture). I for one hope that the civil discussions we were having on the subject can continue.

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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Post by moonshadow » Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:06 pm

"The Bible is not really one book, but the collected works of God's followers the Israelites over the centuries"

Multiple cultures existed even then, as did multiple theologies and religious doctrines.
-Moon Shadow

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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Post by moonshadow » Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:24 pm

Dust wrote:The discussion of Christian scripture is both relevant to the topic at hand (Tennessee preacher) and the wider topic of the forum (skirt wearing - some people condemn it based on scripture). I for one hope that the civil discussions we were having on the subject can continue
Indeed.

My conclusion is this: The preacher has the right to preach whatever he wants. However the same laws that protect his right to do so also protect others as well. One persons rights do not trump another's. So the homosexual can not forbid the preacher from his bold sermon yet the preacher can not execute the homosexual.

...boundries

A society based on strict interpretation of old testament law would SUCK! And I seriously doubt ANY logical American would be happy in such a system.

But what we do have is certain people cherry picking the biblical laws that they would impose on the world at large. It doesn't work that way and the moment we get close to such a world, the that society will fall.

It's ironic thay Fritts desired to have a church meeting in a local Cracker Barrel (Cracker Barrel declined) yet this would have no doubt taken place on a Sunday (the lord's day)... funny, working on the sabbath (whether you believe it to be Saturday or Sunday is moot) is actually a violation of one of the "big ten", yet most Christians... even traditionalist still like to pile into their favorite restaurant after Sunday service, I also see them congregate all over Walmart and other business establishments Sunday afternoon.....

And they probably wouldn't even be in Walmart if they werent... COVETING something they saw earlier in the week.... HYPOCRITES!
-Moon Shadow

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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Post by Ray » Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:47 pm

Dust, I view what I said in a very different way to you. However, this is not a place to debate my views. I take your point on the subject matter, but I don’t see what it’s got to do with a book. If someone quotes Deuteronomy at me, I’ll quote Yoda back at them. It’s the same level of relevance to me. Anyway, I’ll pipe down.

OldSalt - I have seen no evidence of deities, so I don’t believe in them. I have seen evidence of scientific theories, and I tend to believe in them rather more readily. Science is more rational, more logical. That’s all I can really say on the matter.

I’d still rather the religious stuff got toned down though...

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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Post by Dust » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:27 pm

Ray wrote:Dust, I view what I said in a very different way to you. However, this is not a place to debate my views. I take your point on the subject matter, but I don’t see what it’s got to do with a book. If someone quotes Deuteronomy at me, I’ll quote Yoda back at them. It’s the same level of relevance to me. Anyway, I’ll pipe down.
Thank you.
I’d still rather the religious stuff got toned down though...
Understood. I think we can try to keep the serious religious stuff to a few select threads, and then anyone who doesn't want to read it can just skip over them. The discussion seems necessary, but doesn't need to be in every thread. Thread drift has been problem sometimes. Here in this thread, I wouldn't consider the discussion so far out of place.

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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Post by oldsalt1 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:54 pm

Ray I guess we should tone down I will just leave you with John 20 24-29

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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Post by Freedomforall » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:08 pm

moonshadow wrote:
Dust wrote:The discussion of Christian scripture is both relevant to the topic at hand (Tennessee preacher) and the wider topic of the forum (skirt wearing - some people condemn it based on scripture). I for one hope that the civil discussions we were having on the subject can continue
Indeed.

My conclusion is this: The preacher has the right to preach whatever he wants. However the same laws that protect his right to do so also protect others as well. One persons rights do not trump another's. So the homosexual can not forbid the preacher from his bold sermon yet the preacher can not execute the homosexual.

...boundries

A society based on strict interpretation of old testament law would SUCK! And I seriously doubt ANY logical American would be happy in such a system.

But what we do have is certain people cherry picking the biblical laws that they would impose on the world at large. It doesn't work that way and the moment we get close to such a world, the that society will fall.

It's ironic thay Fritts desired to have a church meeting in a local Cracker Barrel (Cracker Barrel declined) yet this would have no doubt taken place on a Sunday (the lord's day)... funny, working on the sabbath (whether you believe it to be Saturday or Sunday is moot) is actually a violation of one of the "big ten", yet most Christians... even traditionalist still like to pile into their favorite restaurant after Sunday service, I also see them congregate all over Walmart and other business establishments Sunday afternoon.....

And they probably wouldn't even be in Walmart if they werent... COVETING something they saw earlier in the week.... HYPOCRITES!
I waited on tables in my early 20's and I used to cringe on Sundays when the church crowd would come in. They would have huge parties of five or more that would always run your legs off wanting extra of everything and then leave a one dollar tip with a religious tract.

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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Post by Ray » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:33 pm


Ray
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Post by Ray » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:37 pm

OS - no point quoting scripture at me. Remember - I think it’s all b@ll@cks.

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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Post by crfriend » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:32 pm

Can we please climb down from this before it gets entirely nasty?
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