On Gender

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.

On Gender

Postby denimini » Mon May 27, 2019 11:38 am

Rather than perpetuating irrelevant thread drift elsewhere............
I heard a radio program about gender (National ABC of course) and the guest speaker sort of summed it up for me near the end:
"What can gender say that personality doesn't?"
My sentiments; accept the person without analysing whether they are a non binary, trans, fluid (as in an auto workshop); be yourself without fear of people making baseless assumptions about you.

Unfortunately I can not find the podcast or transcript as I left it a bit long before looking.
Last edited by denimini on Tue May 28, 2019 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: On Gender

Postby FranTastic444 » Mon May 27, 2019 3:15 pm

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Re: On Gender

Postby denimini » Tue May 28, 2019 10:57 am

FranTastic444 wrote:Here you go...

Very good! Thanks

My quote was inaccurate but the premise was Ok.
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Re: On Gender

Postby dillon » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:39 pm

Interesting podcast. I think the real takeaway is that "gender" is not binary, not fully biological, nor fully cultural, but that we have only traditional culture norms by which to assess our unique identity. But there remains more we do not understand about the gender "spectrum" (if I may use that idea) than we do understand. I suspect it will be an enigmatic subject forever, since no two individuals are likely the same, so far as gender or sexuality. That difference has been found even between identical twins.

Here is a broadcast you may find interesting. It is less serious than the gender topic, but still interesting:

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/220/testosterone
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Re: On Gender

Postby denimini » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:38 am

Thanks dillon, one of many more things that makes us who we are.
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Re: On Gender

Postby Ralph » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:14 pm

dillon wrote:But there remains more we do not understand about the gender "spectrum" (if I may use that idea) than we do understand.

I'd go so far as to say it's not even a spectrum, because that implies a zero-sum game where various traits make you more masculine/less feminine or vice-versa.

Certainly, there are traits which are historically considered more masculine or more feminine. But suppose you assign a score to each trait (physically aggressive = -5, nurturing = +5, more analytical = -3, more intuitive = +3, etc.) If I have a mix of traits -- some of them very masculine (-5), some very feminine (+5), some slightly masculine (-2 or -1), etc. so the sum of those values adds up to around zero... does that accurately describe me as gender-neutral or androgynous? I'm not *on* a spectrum; I just have some traits that are considered masculine and some that are considered feminine.

Does that distinction make sense, or am I nitpicking over trivial semantics?
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Re: On Gender

Postby pelmut » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:29 pm

Ralph wrote:...(physically aggressive = -5, nurturing = +5, more analytical = -3, more intuitive = +3, etc.) If I have a mix of traits -- some of them very masculine (-5), some very feminine (+5), some slightly masculine (-2 or -1), etc. so the sum of those values adds up to around zero...

That's a bit like saying if you have your head in the oven and your feet in the freezer, on average you are comfortable.

On a more serious note, I have yet to hear of a good objective way of measuring gender; it's something you just know.
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Re: On Gender

Postby Freefrom » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:09 pm

'Gender spectrum' aside for a moment might I make an observation?
The apparel people of most societies wear is its cultures primary means of signaling personal gender to others. The actual garment means very little but they are worn as a kind of universal uniform. The edges are becoming increasingly blurred especially after trousers became acceptable wear for women; if they have succeeded in changing custom so shall we. :)
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Re: On Gender

Postby Jim » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:46 pm

The recent Catholic statement on gender may be of interest.


A Vatican department has issued a sweeping denunciation of so-called gender theory, and affirmed the principles of human dignity, difference, and complementarity.

“In all such [gender] theories, from the most moderate to the most radical, there is agreement that one’s gender ends up being viewed as more important than being of male or female sex,” the Congregation for Catholic Education wrote June 10, in a new document entitled “Male and Female He Created Them.”

“The effect of this move is chiefly to create a cultural and ideological revolution driven by relativism, and secondarily a juridical revolution, since such beliefs claim specific rights for the individual and across society.”

The document says it aims to set out an intellectual framework “towards a path of dialogue on the question of gender theory in education.”https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/new-vatican-document-says-gender-theory-is-cultural-and-ideological-revolution-88531?fbclid=IwAR0cpXUDdsThRtHbdXUWhGWs-_cA6qsZKse7elKvDtft79mlkJLjxtyat3s
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Re: On Gender

Postby crfriend » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:59 pm

I think that a good starting point here would be to stop constantly "moving the goalposts" of what it means to be a man or a woman and put them back where they were, say 40 years ago. Let's stop pushing women to be ersatz men and men into being macho machines.

It's always been a spectrum in which everybody possessed traits "typical" (or stereotypical) of the "other gender"; I think the modern hard-shove to masculinity at the expense of femininity has come at a huge expense to all involved. Wouldn't it be nice to be "human" again?
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Re: On Gender

Postby moonshadow » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:04 am

Jim wrote:The recent Catholic statement on gender may be of interest.


A Vatican department has issued a sweeping denunciation of so-called gender theory, and affirmed the principles of human dignity, difference, and complementarity.

“In all such [gender] theories, from the most moderate to the most radical, there is agreement that one’s gender ends up being viewed as more important than being of male or female sex,” the Congregation for Catholic Education wrote June 10, in a new document entitled “Male and Female He Created Them.”

“The effect of this move is chiefly to create a cultural and ideological revolution driven by relativism, and secondarily a juridical revolution, since such beliefs claim specific rights for the individual and across society.”

The document says it aims to set out an intellectual framework “towards a path of dialogue on the question of gender theory in education.”https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/new-vatican-document-says-gender-theory-is-cultural-and-ideological-revolution-88531?fbclid=IwAR0cpXUDdsThRtHbdXUWhGWs-_cA6qsZKse7elKvDtft79mlkJLjxtyat3s


What does all this mean in plain English? Are they in favor of gender freedom or is it the same old same old from the church? It sounds like the latter....
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Re: On Gender

Postby Darryl » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:36 am

My seat of the pants philosophy is that we have a certain 'setting' based on the balance of testosterone and estrogen our bodies make naturally, plus the effects of being overweight which may increase the estrogen via aromatization. Men and women are on a continuum just based on this - too much T and you might have a 'natural' roid rage or the opposite with too little T if you're a guy.

Then you have your role models and 'heroes' in entertainment: Father Knows Best, Roy Rogers, Sky King, Gene Autry. You imprint on your parents, and I'll say to some extent on those 'like' our parents you watch regularly on TV.

Then your home situation: if not both parents who spends the most time with you? I was pretty much raised by my mom's mother. Her dad had a stroke and passed when I was around 10, IIRC. My mom worked to keep us afloat, and I saw my dad on weekends when he took me to visit uncles and cousins and to ball games.

I guess I did the guy things that I was expected to do, but I was a poor ball player. Couldn't catch a softball and stopped with basketball after exuberantly stealing the ball from my own team. Other than that I rode my bicycle around with my friends from the neighborhood and school....and helped my grandmother..... With things like sewing, crocheting, waxing floors and so on.

And genetics may play a part, but as a computer geek I'll vote for all the programming such as I mentioned above playing a larger role. 8)
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Re: On Gender

Postby Grok » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:43 am

Freefrom wrote:if they have succeeded in changing custom so shall we. :)
Yes, women did manage to change the rules that applied to themselves.
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Re: On Gender

Postby Ralph » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:24 am

Freefrom wrote:The edges are becoming increasingly blurred especially after trousers became acceptable wear for women; if they have succeeded in changing custom so shall we. :)


Well... yes and no. Here's the reason they succeeded in under a hundred years and we have barely scratched the surface: Under all of society's claims of "equality", the dirty little secret is that the bulk of Western society still considers women inferior.

No, hear me out. When women started wearing trousers, they were perceived as trying to emulate men, in other words increase their stature by emulating the so-called "stronger" sex. There's a gal with spunk! Good for her!

But when a man puts on a dress... he's stepping down. He's taking on the appearance of a woman, and in so doing he is diminishing his stature by emulating the so-called "weaker" sex. Why would anyone with a shred of dignity and self-worth want to do that? Man up, you pansy.

Sure, there is a progressive element who thinks that's a fine idea; the same ones who never had a problem with anyone in the alphabet soup of identity labels. But they're still in the minority. Until the day Joe Six-Pack can be convinced that a man emulating a woman improves his character -- is a status to be desired -- anything we do that is historically considered the realm of women will be looked upon by most of society with disdain. The best we can hope for is to be ignored and not directly attacked for failing to uphold the social contract.
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Re: On Gender

Postby Uncle Al » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:06 am

Ralph wrote: <snip> When women started wearing trousers, they were perceived as trying to emulate men <snip>

Slight problem here Ralph.......Women started wearing trousers because they were working
in the factories, building the aircraft, tanks & other support vehicles during WW2.
The trousers would not get caught in the machinery they were using. A skirt/dress would
get caught, causing major bodily harm to the operator.

The actress, Kate Hepburn, portrayed a woman working in an aircraft factory in a movie.
She said she wasn't going to change clothes at the studio just to go home. So she wore
the trousers home. This caused a major 'Fru-Fru' with the studio and when the press(media)
got wind of it, she became famous for wearing trousers. She recommended more women
wear trousers do the 'freedom' they allowed her.

Just my $0.02 worth ;)

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