Flower Boy at Wedding

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.

Flower Boy at Wedding

Postby Stu » Sat May 25, 2019 7:00 pm

I don't know what to make of this. Any thoughts?

https://apracticalwedding.com/flower-boy/
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Re: Flower Boy at Wedding

Postby Fred in Skirts » Sat May 25, 2019 7:15 pm

I make it to be a very understanding mother who only wants what is best for her child. OK the child is what she calls gender non-conforming. So what We here are non-conforming as well. I have seen what has happened to many other non-conforming people who were forced to conform to what is called the norm for the human race. They are very unhappy and end up as mentally sick people.
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Re: Flower Boy at Wedding

Postby JohnH » Sat May 25, 2019 10:25 pm

Look at all the men that want to be women so they are freed from the strict constraints of what men can wear or how they groom themselves. If I were a musician in an orchestra I would wear a gown instead of the confining coat and tie. And in a choir where altos are men and women, why can't a bass like myself wear a gown instead of a suit? I have the long hair and the figure.

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Re: Flower Boy at Wedding

Postby crfriend » Sat May 25, 2019 11:40 pm

Stu wrote:I don't know what to make of this. Any thoughts?

You'd like a few thoughts? Well here are a few.

I'm sick of what's happened to masculinity in the past few decades -- bloody sick of it. Somehow, somewhere along the way, I have been reclassified as trans-* when in point of fact I'm still largely the same as I was 50 years ago and was regarded as perfectly normal. So the lad wants to carry flowers for the bride at a wedding. When did this become a big deal worth spilling ink over?

When I was young I was slightly different from most male children, but still well within male boundaries. I was considered slightly "sensitive" and always wanted long hair. Yet I always had girls for childhood friends and girlfriends in adolescence and women lovers as an adult. But something happened. I no longer have my identity, and know not what to even call myself today. Today, even though I have not materially changed, I am looked at askance -- and sometimes with suspicion.

Did I consent to this change? No. Was I participant in it? No. Was I even aware that it was happening? Mostly no as I had more important matters to contemplate at the time.

Yet, a short half-century on, I now have no independent identity; what's assigned to me is entirely false and based on flawed thinking. And, put very bluntly I'm more than a bit torqued off about the matter.

What happened? It all has to do with what I'll crassly call the "butching up" of the culture. This has been going on for decades now, and has resulted in women becoming more and more male, with men being forced into the deep recess of the parody-role of machismo. Men are the collateral damage in this -- especially the ones who are by nature sensitive, caring, and empathetic. These men -- who heretofore were entirely "normal" are now highly "abnormal" and, therefore, by definition deeply into the trans-* category. Even the very masculine types from a few decades ago are now subject to the classification as they're not "masculine enough" (read, "macho") in the modern system. If it's bad for guys like me, I can't even imagine how bad it is for the previously highly-masculine to find themselves on the trans-* spectrum.

What to do about it? Repudiate it. Utterly. Refuse to cooperate with it. Retake our proper place in society. Speak out in opposition of what's happened. But, most importantly, be ourselves. Be the best men we can be. Do the best we can for our families, for ourselves, for our children, and for the future. We may be at a turning point here. Let's not blow this. The stakes are too high.
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Re: Flower Boy at Wedding

Postby JohnH » Sun May 26, 2019 1:40 am

I may look a lot like a woman and want to wear dresses and skirts, but darn it, I ABSOLUTELY refuse to identify as a woman as I am a man. So those of us who have "feminine" tendencies need to be MEN and go against the pernicious narrow conventions and be ourselves. I really appreciate this website where genetic men are not to take on feminine names.
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Re: Flower Boy at Wedding

Postby dillon » Sun May 26, 2019 2:48 am

Pretty sure that as an adult in America, you are allowed to identify as whatever you feel...so far, at least; that may change. But will you extend that courtesy to children? Or will you abet those who make children ashamed of their gender identity differences? The article, after all, was most definitely NOT written about you. It was about people who perpetuate gender bigotry in society, subtly imposed upon its most defenseless members, and about those members who suffer the most for their differences. We punish parents who physically abuse their children...but do nothing to those who warp the self images of kids with infused pseudo-righteous prejudices. I think folks of our age suffered enough for our differences, in whatever form we felt, that we should be happily willing to stand against that malevolence toward our children and grandchildren now. We're old men; the haters REALLY can't hurt us any more. But, if at our age, you still fear or resent an association that we all know exists in the eyes of (many of) the beholders, then maybe it was all about you - at least as a victim of the mores under which we were socialized. But I don't know your heart and mind, or the remnant pain you may clutch in the depth of your guts, so it's your call, bro. But of all the ways you can relate, I ask only that you relate through kindness.
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Re: Flower Boy at Wedding

Postby crfriend » Sun May 26, 2019 11:09 am

dillon wrote:[... W]ill you extend that courtesy to children? Or will you abet those who make children ashamed of their gender identity differences?

Absolutely I'll extend the courtesy to the children, and I'm not about to go along with those who try to stuff folks into little tiny boxes.

Odds are the kid is a perfectly normal boy and will grow up into a fully functional man in the course of time. Denying this lad his wish of carrying flowers would have been cruel. Worse, it would have been petty. And to what end? So some random adult doesn't see that kids have feelings and appreciate beauty?

Traditionally, a young boy would have been the ring-bearer, but that role now seems to have gone to the groom, effectively cutting boys out of the spectacle. Too, whilst it's been traditional for young girls to carry flowers at weddings, I'm pretty sure that there have been boys in the mix too, and that's not entirely inappropriate for the point is that it's children not sex-segregated children.

I think folks of our age suffered enough for our differences, in whatever form we felt, that we should be happily willing to stand against that malevolence toward our children and grandchildren now.

I'd like to think that we can make the world a better place by making it more inclusive not just for children, but also for the adults. The narrow-minded, shrinking, and too-fluid definitions of "normality" need to go -- for everybody. But that's going to require a massive re-work of the modern psyche which has been under a constant barrage pushing it in the other direction for decades.
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Re: Flower Boy at Wedding

Postby denimini » Sun May 26, 2019 12:09 pm

Stu wrote:I don't know what to make of this. Any thoughts?


He looks happy, more so than if he was prevented from doing what he wanted.

I am not sure why gender should come into it. The facts so far are that he wanted to wear a pretty pink dress to a wedding.
Last edited by denimini on Sun May 26, 2019 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flower Boy at Wedding

Postby Stu » Sun May 26, 2019 12:23 pm

Thank you for those who have shared their "thoughts", as I requested. I have some thoughts of my own to share on this.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to recalibrate our attitude to clothing from time-to-time. We already do this. For example, we don't expect female football (soccer) players to wear short skirts like netball players; they wear shorts like the men. Female police officers wear trousers most of the time. Males and females practising judo wear the same apparel. So we can and do make clothing relate to activity without worrying about gender, especially where its is pragmatic to do that. Why should that not also be the case with occasions like weddings? I recall hearing a woman talking about her forthcoming wedding and having "bride's aides and not bridesmaids", in order to allow boys to participate, which seems reasonable. There could be a corresponding role for "groom's aides" and the "aides" would align in terms of clothing to the principal they were aiding. So the brides' aides would coordinate with the bride and the groom's aides with the groom. I don't think we should try to erase genie differences or traditions involving gender, or having a "norm". A bride's aides would normally be expected to be female and a groom's would be male. However, people should always be at liberty to deviate from the norm out of preference and that seems to be the situation in the case I linked.

With regard to so-called "gender-nonconforming" children, to me the issue is primarily one of age. Children start as babies and rigidly sticking to gender norms at such a tender age and before the child has any awareness of their sex is just weird. It says more about the parents than the child if they do this. Alternatively, I would not normally expect to see a 10-year-old boy in a floral party dress, sparkly shoes and an Alice band - that would be equally weird to most observers and a case worthy of investigation. A child should be acculturated to his or her gender gradually, starting at around three or four, and with plenty of flexibility built in along with opportunities for experimentation and personal expression. In practical terms, that would mean gently steering a child towards gender appropriate clothes between the ages of four and six, but being tolerant if they resist.

The issue of wearing skirts and/or dresses as a gender-secure male is another matter completely. That becomes an issue of sartorial choices rather than gender expression; in other words, men (and boys) should have more clothing options, including access to garments which have been taboo for them, and to do so without any gender-related implications or any association with the trans movement. That fits in with my proposal to recalibrate our attitude to clothing and relate clothing choices to activity rather than gender. So just as a female firefighter can wear trousers to work, so a schoolboy should have the option to wear a skirt as part of his uniform.
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Re: Flower Boy at Wedding

Postby moonshadow » Sun May 26, 2019 1:07 pm

As to the article,

When I first started posting on this website, I might have said that "by all means, let young boys wear whatever they want!". Looking back through the lens of almost 4 years of some very hardcore public skirt wearing, and all the fun and drama that has went with it, I can say that it is honestly not for children. While it is wonderful to see parents that support their son in his desires to wear a dress and carry flowers at a wedding, I do not think she is doing the child justice when she basically states that she will allow him to wear whatever he wants to any event regardless of the circumstances or who has an issue with it.

I'm sorry but the world doesn't work that way.. What we have here is a classic situation where a child isn't being told "no". Part of parenting is preparing the child for the upcoming world, and indeed there is a place for a gender non-conforming adult man in the world, but it's a tricky place, and it's not as easy to navigate as one who was just "normal". Which by the way Carl, my only "identification" at this point is "abnormal". :lol: I doubt few would argue that.

But sometimes normal is called for. Sometimes it is in our best interest to blend in with the crowd to achieve a task laid before us. There are times when masculinity is needed. In situations where I need to be taken absolutely seriously, I wear clothes that help me to be taken seriously in. Also, there is the matter of teaching the young man to become a gentleman later in life. Gentlemen are respectful, and a gentleman is non-combative, non-abrasive, and is sensitive to the emotions of others. When my wife told me I could wear a dress if I wanted to our vow renewal, I told her I would wear the proper clothes for the occasion. Why? Because we're not going out for a pizza here, or visiting the worlds largest ball of twine. This will be a very special event, one that may never happen again, photos will be taken, and memories made, and I feel it very proper and appropriate to wear a suit during the event, why? Because above all, I strive to be a gentleman and not carry on like a fussy child when it comes to such matters.

Now when it's over, and we're all sitting around, or maybe even the next day when we take our "honeymoon" (we've never had one), well then I might wear something I like since it will be more casual.

But anyway, back to the child (a kid is a young goat). My only issue here is the mom's refusal to tell the boy "no". I fear what we have here are two parents who have let the child basically do whatever he wanted his whole life, and in this matter, never explained why it's appropriate and gentlemanly to be respectful of other people's events, lest you desire to be that guy who never gets invited anywhere. Now... if you don't like going to weddings, then wear a dress to one, you'll probably never get invited to another one! :wink:

Also, I tend to roll my eyes when these gender noncomforming articles are about children, especially young children, why? Because they are at that age where nobody is going to question what they do (they question/judge the parents, not the child- BIG difference here...). Try being a post pubescent teenage boy trying to survive in high school who also likes wearing a dress, try sitting down in front of a job interviewer with your nails painted, eye liner on, a skirt and pretty blouse and high heel shoes. Sure, there are some employers who don't mind, but in 99 out of 100 cases, it's normally better to leave the dresses and skirts at home for that one. These children need to understand that there are some cases when you just have to wear what you may not want to wear.

That's life. As the song goes "you can't always get what you want".

Prepubescent girly boys are cute. Teenage girly boys are going to get bullied to death (sometimes literally), girly men are just weird (per society).

This child needs to understand that if he chooses to continue this into adulthood, then whenever he leaves Oakland California, he is going to have to have some thick skin, and he's going to have to live in a world where other parents will shield their children from your influence, people will think you're a pervert, 99% of women will be turned off by you (I wonder how this mom would feel if the groom desired to wear a wedding dress to their wedding.... hurrrmmmmm???), and you will generally live your life in a sort of "social exile".

Dillon, even you've said yourself in other threads, that you more or less don't care what people say now (paraphrasing) because you're retired. You know how it is. And recall that even you wore trousers to pick up your bob cat and dump truck. Why? Because you understand that value and leverage that appearing "normal" extends on certain circumstances. When I interviewed with my current job, despite the fact that "gender identity" is a protected class with this employer, I still wore pants and dressed "normal", even though I really didn't care one way or the other if I got hired (I was perfectly content with my previous job), but simply that I desired to be taken seriously.

I don't share Carl's level of annoyance at the "trans" thing, mainly because the world already thinks trans-people are crazy anyway, and most people refuse to acknowledge a trans-person's "transness". I chuckle at locals who seem to obnoxiously "SIR!" me as though they feel they are somehow offending me when they see me out and about in a skirt. I'm sure they expect me to turn around, wave my hand and go all diva on them. Rather, I turn, smile, deepen my voice and say "yes?", then watch them get that pissed off look on their face as I deny them their prize.

Though to get back to Carl's rant, I don't think the article said anything about the child being trans. In fact, he is considered a flower-boy. They say he is gender-noncomforming. That's not saying he's full blown "trans". That just means he doesn't conform to gender stereotypes. Hell, 100% of women are gender-nonconforming. When we don a "woman's" skirt, we are not conforming to gender stereotypes. Merriam Webster has the word listed as a adjective. I prefer to think of it is a verb, or as something we do, rather than something that describes what we are.

Just my thoughts on it... not like it really matters what I think, and I realize this, so go easy on me.
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Re: Flower Boy at Wedding

Postby skirtyscot » Sun May 26, 2019 1:56 pm

denimini wrote:
Stu wrote:I don't know what to make of this. Any thoughts?


He looks happy, more so than if he was prevented from doing what he wanted.

I am not sure why gender should come into it. The facts so far are that he wanted to wear a pretty pink dress to a wedding.


I'm with denimini on this.

I think he fits in perfectly with the other children. He'd already had to wear a suit to a wedding, and he hated it. This time he got his way and he looked very cute, relaxed and happy.

No doubt the mother knew that the adult guests would be fine with her son's outfit. And she trusted them to stop their own children from giving him a hard time for it. (Or maybe even to have tought them that this sort of thing is fine so they would accept his choice without any problems.)

No big long essay from me, that's far too much thinking for a Sunday afternoon!
Keep on skirting,

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Re: Flower Boy at Wedding

Postby Stevie D » Sun May 26, 2019 4:41 pm

skirtyscot wrote:
denimini wrote:
Stu wrote:I don't know what to make of this. Any thoughts?


He looks happy, more so than if he was prevented from doing what he wanted.

I am not sure why gender should come into it. The facts so far are that he wanted to wear a pretty pink dress to a wedding.


I'm with denimini on this.

I think he fits in perfectly with the other children. He'd already had to wear a suit to a wedding, and he hated it. This time he got his way and he looked very cute, relaxed and happy.

No doubt the mother knew that the adult guests would be fine with her son's outfit. And she trusted them to stop their own children from giving him a hard time for it. (Or maybe even to have tought them that this sort of thing is fine so they would accept his choice without any problems.)

No big long essay from me, that's far too much thinking for a Sunday afternoon!


I am in total agreement with Denimini and SkirtyScot. No need to overthink this one. Reading the original article should give people all the information they need. It's a lovely story with lovely photos.

I don't think it is helpful to try to project what may, or may not occur, with this child in the future (e.g. when he is a teenager). It's the 'now' which is important here. The child is happy, the parents are happy, the bride and bridegroom and all the guests are happy. No more need to worry.

Stevie (who got married wearing a dress).
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Re: Flower Boy at Wedding

Postby mishawakaskirt » Sun May 26, 2019 7:22 pm

crfriend wrote:
Stu wrote:I don't know what to make of this. Any thoughts?

You'd like a few thoughts? Well here are a few.

I'm sick of what's happened to masculinity in the past few decades -- bloody sick of it. Somehow, somewhere along the way, I have been reclassified as trans-* when in point of fact I'm still largely the same as I was 50 years ago and was regarded as perfectly normal. So the lad wants to carry flowers for the bride at a wedding. When did this become a big deal worth spilling ink over?

When I was young I was slightly different from most male children, but still well within male boundaries. I was considered slightly "sensitive" and always wanted long hair. Yet I always had girls for childhood friends and girlfriends in adolescence and women lovers as an adult. But something happened. I no longer have my identity, and know not what to even call myself today. Today, even though I have not materially changed, I am looked at askance -- and sometimes with suspicion.

Did I consent to this change? No. Was I participant in it? No. Was I even aware that it was happening? Mostly no as I had more important matters to contemplate at the time.

Yet, a short half-century on, I now have no independent identity; what's assigned to me is entirely false and based on flawed thinking. And, put very bluntly I'm more than a bit torqued off about the matter.

What happened? It all has to do with what I'll crassly call the "butching up" of the culture. This has been going on for decades now, and has resulted in women becoming more and more male, with men being forced into the deep recess of the parody-role of machismo. Men are the collateral damage in this -- especially the ones who are by nature sensitive, caring, and empathetic. These men -- who heretofore were entirely "normal" are now highly "abnormal" and, therefore, by definition deeply into the trans-* category. Even the very masculine types from a few decades ago are now subject to the classification as they're not "masculine enough" (read, "macho") in the modern system. If it's bad for guys like me, I can't even imagine how bad it is for the previously highly-masculine to find themselves on the trans-* spectrum.

What to do about it? Repudiate it. Utterly. Refuse to cooperate with it. Retake our proper place in society. Speak out in opposition of what's happened. But, most importantly, be ourselves. Be the best men we can be. Do the best we can for our families, for ourselves, for our children, and for the future. We may be at a turning point here. Let's not blow this. The stakes are too high.


I agree the stake's are too high.

It's seems like masculinity and manhood is under attack.

Misandry

I been noticing more and more microaggressions toward men, but I’ve found surprisingly little discussion of this trend. There is a word most people have never heard of: Misandry, meaning hatred of men. It corresponds to misogyny, hatred of women. By noticing microaggressions directed against men, we can uncover a lot of ‘hidden’ misandry. Here are some examples I've come across:

“Men only think with their dicks.”
“A man wouldn’t understand.”
“Men just want a hole to put it in.”
“Men can’t hear the word no.” (when rejected sexually)
“Men are obsessed with lesbian porn.”
“Really? You don’t like sports?”
“He’s, you know, ‘artistic.’”
“Be a man.”
"Boys are too rough and tumble"
"Manspreading"
Men are womanizers, man-whores, man-sluts”
I’ve even heard women say things like, “Balls are gross. I hate them.” If a woman overheard men talking about vaginas being dirty and disgusting, she’d surely think this was misogyny and microaggression, but why not the other way around? Many otherwise enlightened people seem to think that putting a man down by shaming him for the transgressions of a few criminal men or for his inadequate physicality is a sort of privilege or entitlement. They are not even aware of their misandry.


I Mishawaka, as a boy was never really rough and tumble. Didn't care for gi Joe s or he-man.
I collected stuffed animals, Loved the movie Annie.
Ok and star wars. I would rather hang with the adults or with the girls than go play with the boys.

While I believe that there are only two sexes .
This you can, can't thing is ridiculous.
Men affirm and build up women.
Women support and not belittle the men.
Celebrate our differences in the sexes.

In a parable sort of way.
Think of men like a shovel and women like a garden trowel. Yes they are both shovels. They both can dig dirt, can both be used in a garden. But they both are better suited for different tasks. You need both to do the job well. Male and female complete the package and are complementary. It's not a competition.
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Avoid the middle man, wear a kilt or skirt.
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Re: Flower Boy at Wedding

Postby Stu » Sun May 26, 2019 9:10 pm

Some interesting contributions.

Of course if that's what he wanted, then there is no reason to stop him. He certainly appears to have enjoyed the experience and I am sure it won't have hurt him. I wonder how many other six-year-old boys would, if invited to be a "flower boy" like the one in the article, would agree to do it if they were told it would involving what he wore. What about us? How many commenters on here would have agreed to it, or even wanted to do it, when they were his age? I would bet the answer is very few - or perhaps none. No way would I have done that under any circumstances. We may want to expand our sartorial options, but I don't think most of us want to wear something which is overtly feminine. But maybe I'm wrong.
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Re: Flower Boy at Wedding

Postby john62 » Sun May 26, 2019 10:44 pm

In the local paper this week, an article was written about a survey performed in large companies. One outcome was that senior male management no longer which to mentor female employees, too dangerous, the female writer was lamenting this was another blow to woman, what does she expect!

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