A short documentary Tomgirl

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.

Re: A short documentary Tomgirl

Postby Stu » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:34 am

pelmut wrote:In the same way that left-handedness or ginger hair are?  Any doctor claiming to 'treat' transgenderism in the UK would be struck off and anyone attempting to 'cure' it would be in serious trouble with the law.

I hope your comment referred to long-outdated practices or was based on misinformation.


Hmmm... I'm not sure about that.

My view is that if your physical body is incongruent with your mind, then that is by definition an issue that needs to be resolved. Some people resolve it by living as the opposite sex and are, rightly in my view, assisted to do that if they wish with medical interventions (hormones, surgery), cosmetic treatments and even voice training. That, for them, is the "cure" for the incongruence they are experiencing. For others, however, the "cure" may be something else. While I have no reason to believe the feelings can be eliminated, treatments such as counselling and psychotherapy may assist them in understanding and managing their feelings so they can cope with them and get on with their lives as members of their physical sex.

Maybe the word "cure" is inaccurate, but that's a semantic point. To deny that people with gender identity issues often need medical and/or psychological therapy is to deny reality; left-handed people or those with ginger hair do not need such treatment.
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Re: A short documentary Tomgirl

Postby pelmut » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:41 am

Stu wrote:My view is that if your physical body is incongruent with your mind, then that is by definition an issue that needs to be resolved.

The incongruence is not biological, it is social.  Society has decided that only females can live a narrowly-defined feminine rôle in life or use certain pronouns or dress in a certain way - and the existence of transgender people, non-binary people and Men in Skirts proves that Society has got it wrong.

Maybe the word "cure" is inaccurate, but that's a semantic point. To deny that people with gender identity issues often need medical and/or psychological therapy is to deny reality;

The reality is that people with gender identity issues are often driven to medical and/or psychological therapy because of the way they are treated by Society.  If they are left to get on with their lives, they are no more likely to need therapy than the rest of the population.

left-handed people or those with ginger hair do not need such treatment.

That is because Society no longer sees left-handedness as a perversion and no longer beats them into conforming with false 'norms'. Previous to that, left-handed people were treated abominably and suffered various 'nervous disorders' as a result.  Similarly (although to a lesser extent) ginger-haired people were frequently the target of mockery.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Re: A short documentary Tomgirl

Postby Stu » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:09 am

The incongruence is not biological, it is social. Society has decided that only females can live a narrowly-defined feminine rôle in life or use certain pronouns or dress in a certain way - and the existence of transgender people, non-binary people and Men in Skirts proves that Society has got it wrong.


I agree there is a social element to this, but I don't buy that argument as a general rule. There may be some feminine-inclined males and masculine-inclined females, but that's simply not sufficient for many trans people; they regard themselves as members of the opposite sex to what their anatomy says they are. Trans people often get married once they have transitioned and want to live full lives.

I also think trans people need to be careful about making that argument, too. If you are saying this is just a social phenomenon and you try to remove the medical aspect, then why should the National Health Service treat people? Why should doctors prescribe powerful hormones or surgeons undertake radical surgery?

The reality is that people with gender identity issues are often driven to medical and/or psychological therapy because of the way they are treated by Society.


So if society treated them differently, then we could insist there should be no further need for gender reassignment medical or surgical treatments? You really want to go down that road?

If they are left to get on with their lives, they are no more likely to need therapy than the rest of the population
.

I would wager most trans people wouldn't agree with that for the reasons I stated above. Regardless of how they were treated, many would still want the medical interventions.

As a fairly typical non-trans person, I am more than happy to allow a trans person to get on with their lives. For me, and I reckon most other people, it's both none of my business and it's just not an issue. I deal with people as individuals and I judge them by their characters and not by their physiology or gender presentation. I am not saying that trans people don't experience hostility in some quarters and discrimination, but so do other groups and in the case of trans people, they are winning the battle. It is becoming increasingly accepted. Just as trans people need tolerance and understanding, so do others for whom this is a new phenomenon and it may take them some time to adjust their thinking on it that has been conditioned over many many years. Patience and tolerance begets patience and tolerance.
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Re: A short documentary Tomgirl

Postby Pdxfashionpioneer » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:02 am

Nowhere in the film did anyone suggest that Jake was a girl. He identifies himself as boy who likes dressing and doing a lot of things that girls typically do. I feel this phase he's going through is going to last him the rest of his life. Just as it has for many of us.

As to the folks we call transgendered (formerly transsexual), the reason the medical/therapy community is now facilitating those transitions at such early ages, it's because the kids are aware of who they are at those ages. The sooner they can make that switch, the happier they're going to be throughout life. Typically, as a precaution when these children hit puberty they'll be given hormone blockers rather than the opposite sex's hormones so that if they have a change of heart, they're not stuck with unfortunate body changes. But those reversals are relatively rare.

If you spend any time with people who have transitioned, you'll see that it's a very real phenomenon and anything but a "racket." You'll also learn that they knew from a very early age. You'll also see all of that in autobiographies of the transgendered.
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Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.
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Re: A short documentary Tomgirl

Postby pelmut » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:06 am

Stu wrote:
The incongruence is not biological, it is social. ...
...If they are left to get on with their lives, they are no more likely to need therapy than the rest of the population
.

I would wager most trans people wouldn't agree with that for the reasons I stated above. Regardless of how they were treated, many would still want the medical interventions.

Transpeople are part of society too, so they have been subjected to the same expectations as the rest of us.  It takes a lot to break away from those norms, especially when you are directly affected by them every day of your life.  There will be many transpeople for whom a complete change is the only satisfactory outcome; but there are many more who could accept social transition and tolerate their body without modification, if only the people around them would accept it too.

There has been a great increase in the number of 'non-op' transpeople in the last five years, just as there has been an increase in the number of men prepared to wear skirts openly in public without shame or ridicule - I think both of these changes have the same cause: an increasing level of acceptance by society.  That is a trend I think needs to continue.
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