Holy skirt day

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.

Re: Holy skirt day

Postby Ray » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:42 pm

Oldsalt, I’m not sure where the offence is.

1. If it’s a suggestion that your god is female, then that’s far from offensive. We’re fighting for clothing equality here, and that won’t happen until male and female have equal status. Therefore ascribing either sex/gender to a deity really shouldn’t matter.

2. If the offence is caused by Moon suggesting your god has a sense of humour or appreciates irony, that’s lost on me. How can one be offended by ascribing human behaviour to a deity?

I do not question the fact that there’s something in the above that riles you; I’m just trying to understand what or why.

Tom - yes, Dave Allen was terrific to watch or listen to. His irreverence punctured the often pompous dogma surrounding religion, yet nothing was barbed. The funeral / coffin race is brilliant!
Ray
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 863
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:03 am
Location: West Midlands, England, UK

Re: Holy skirt day

Postby oldsalt1 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:34 pm

Ray Suggesting that my God is a female may not be offensive in your mind but it is to me. And your assertion that He is just some run of the mill" a deity " that one can ascribe sex or gender to is also extremely offensive .

I don't want to make any reference to the level of your religious beliefs but they would appear to be different from mine.

I just feel that the point of moons discussion could have been made without the comments in question.

Since this seems to be an ongoing discussion. Would you take offense if because of your attire I referred to you as a woman.
User avatar
oldsalt1
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 1802
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:25 pm
Location: Long Island, New York

Re: Holy skirt day

Postby crfriend » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:17 pm

On the gender or sex of gods how can we mere mortals even begin to approach the question? In fact it's entirely likely that even if they do exist we wouldn't recognise one if it came up and said, "Hello" to us.

Even Christianity has echoes of this in the notion of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost). So, nobody knows for sure, but I am certainly of the suspicion that god was created in man's image not the other way 'round -- for if was the other way 'round we'd have issues with things like disability and mortality, and those are certainly human traits not divine ones.

Faith and religion have the power to be powerful binding and unifying forces; I find it sad that usually they're used for precisely the opposite end, especially on the part of organised religions.

In moderator mode, I'm willing to let this thread continue so long as it doesn't devolve into personal invective and attack. Suppressing conversation on what amounts to a philosophical matter is never a good thing. The sad part is that someone's thin skin eventually gets bruised and the individual lashes out ad-hominem -- and that's what cannot be tolerated. At the same time, shutting down a thread because someone got their knickers in a knot isn't going to fly either. Sometimes it's a knife's edge that I ask my team to walk -- and they do an admirable job at it! Ideas, notions, and concepts are fair game; individuals are not.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
 
Posts: 9975
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)

Re: Holy skirt day

Postby Ray » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:20 pm

Oldsalt, I would not take offense if you referred to me as a woman. What is there to be offended about? Since I see women as equal, your suggestion that I am someone of different sex but equal cannot cause offense. You would be wrong and I’d say so - but no; I wouldn’t be offended.

This is an important point. I’d ask why you think it so “extremely offensive” to gender your god. What’s wrong with a female god? The Romans and Greeks didn’t have an issue with worshipping goddesses. Why should you? I’m keen to learn.

You are right in suggesting that my religious beliefs differ from yours. I don’t believe there are any gods. I worship no deities. I’m absolutely fine for others to do so: I know that many take huge comfort from faith. It’s not for me to judge someone by their belief system.

If I were a believer, the gender of my god would absolutely not be an issue. I would also not care what they wore.

EDIT - Carl, I have just seen your post. I hope my post above is compliant. The intent is to seek insight.
Ray
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 863
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:03 am
Location: West Midlands, England, UK

Re: Holy skirt day

Postby oldsalt1 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:31 pm

Sorry Ray that last comment came out wrong . It was not meant to be personal.

Ray I feel your answer to me is the answer .

You don't believe in god and don't worship any deities . That's your belief and that is fine.

But since you don't have that level of reverence and belief I don't think that it is possible for you understand my feelings when in my opinion the dignity of my deity is assailed as part of a joke in a casual conversation.

Take a family member or loved one. if someone in passing said something about that person that in your opinion wasn't proper wouldn't you be upset
User avatar
oldsalt1
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 1802
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:25 pm
Location: Long Island, New York

Re: Holy skirt day

Postby oldsalt1 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:50 pm

People don't just get a belief they are usually taught it. If I was originally taught that my deity was a woman I would have no problem worshiping her as such
And most likely I would have the same reaction to someone casually referring to her as a man
User avatar
oldsalt1
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 1802
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:25 pm
Location: Long Island, New York

Re: Holy skirt day

Postby crfriend » Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:29 am

oldsalt1 wrote:People don't just get a belief they are usually taught it.

Does this not naturally bring some questioning of the matter into play?

Perhaps my own natural scepticism is an oddity in the modern world, but I find that when told something -- especially if it's presented as gospel -- I tend to behave in a few ways, depending on how relevant to my existence the "gospel" is:

  • Highly relevant: Lots of research gets done, especially if the "new" gospel conflicts with what I already know, and many thought experiments get run in an attempt to verify or disprove things. In virtually all instances, the "new gospel" gets debunked pretty handily. Overturning known for new has happened, but it's rare. I do retain an open mind.
  • Somewhat relevant: Some research and thought experiments get run to see if the "new gospel" can hold water and is worth further work.
  • Tangentially relevant: A few thought experiments to see if there's any meaning to it at all.
  • Irrelevant: Bottom of the queue, may get some work but will likely get discounted.

Such as it is. I wish I had more time for contemplation, but, quite unlike deities, I am decidedly mortal and the clock, "she is a ticking!"
If I was originally taught that my deity was a woman I would have no problem worshiping her as such
And most likely I would have the same reaction to someone casually referring to her as a man

This is an entirely understandable reaction, but -- is it the correct one? (This is being asked almost as a meta-question.)
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
 
Posts: 9975
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)

Re: Holy skirt day

Postby moonshadow » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:56 am

Fred in Skirts wrote:Having read this discussion and give some thought to it I do not know God's sex. So If some call him a male that is fine, if some call her a female that is fine. Many don't call God anything but God and that is fine too!


I don't think anyone can really "know" God sex. Personally I'm not of the opinion that "God" is even of human form, and probably beyond having a sex or gender. Such matters or mortal constructs. All of that being said, Manly Hall, in his book "Old Testament Wisdom" made an interesting point on page 95 regarding the creation story:
From the book, Old Testament Wisdom by Manly P. Hall wrote:Let us first examine the word God as it is used throuout the first chapter of Genesis. The word in Hebrew is not God, or Jah, or Jehovah, but Elohim. The Anglo-Saxon word God is a reverent but entirely insufficient term with which to convey the true meaning of Elohim. In Hebrew, this is an androgynous term strongly implying a combination of male and female attributes, and also, by its termination, the word is plural. It would be more correct to say, therefore, that Elohim means "The Male-Female Creators," representing a host, or at least a group, or powers, symbolically described as a septenary, and not under any condition a single personal deity.


The book was a FASCINATING read, and I recommend it to anyone who wants to dig a little deeper into the mysteries of the Old Testament.

oldsalt1 wrote: But when he throws out a comment in jest than and he finds that it is insulting to someone , than he adamantly stands by his decision to say it he can ……………..


I understand what you're saying, and I do aim to not be offensive, but with all due respect Dan, it seems people tend to overreact over what others say. I mean, I hear people say things I disagree with on the daily. I just ignore most of it. Once in a while I may put out my two cents on a matter, sometimes I get agrees, sometimes not, but I seldom get asked to take back a remark, especially on religious grounds seeing as how religion is one of those subjects that basically impossible to prove either way.

Everyone has a right to believe what they want, but when said people socialize in the greater world, they have to understand that not everyone will share their beliefs and would do well to just not fret over religious disagreements. Very few people view God in the way I do. I'm okay with that. FWIW I personally believe that the bible story comes down to one of two, or perhaps a combination of both things: 1) The greatest story (fiction) ever told to keep people in line, and/or 2) inspired by extra terrestrial visitors.

I do believe that there is spiritual matters spelled out in the bible, and many of the authors of said books, most likely recorded these books with a spiritual mindset. All of that being said, there is an ENORMOUS amount of information about the history of the bible, the Jews, and the culture of the day. I've been somewhat "into" the old testament here lately and I can say that my mind has been blown by some of what I've read regarding various interpretations and history. The bible by itself is rather like trying to understand an IKEA instruction manual to assemble a TV stand with several pages missing. As a result, sometimes we put the wrong screw in the wrong hole, but most of us finish with a somewhat workable result in the end... :wink:

Using the IKEA metaphor to elaborate further: It takes someone who has a background in assembling furniture as well as someone who knows how to read drawings and instructions as they were meant to be understood. With this knowledge you will have no major issues. The bible seems to be the same way. One must understand the history of the two religions it covers (yes it covers two, Judaism and Christianity), and finally one must understand, at least to some extent the various nuances of the languages of the day, Hebrew, Arabic, Greek, etc. To put your trust solely on the King James English version and nothing more leaves many proverbial biblical stones unturned. Further, most people don't realize there are actually two King James Versions, the current one, and the 1611 version. The latter is a VERY interesting read! I hope to get one in an actual bound book soon (rather than online only)

My opinion on the core "religions" of the bible.... are you reading for this (sit down for it....)

I find them to be most interesting, fascinating, elegant, and in many ways beautifully thought out. It is a crying shame that the average Christian American can probably quote a few of the 10 commandments, and of course John 3:16. There is SO MUCH DEPTH in the story of the Hebrews in ancient times it boggles the mind. I can't help but feel that if more "Christians" actually studied the history and deep traditions of their chosen faith, quite frankly they wouldn't bother worrying about what people like myself have to say, they probably woudln't worry so much with what ever their politician is up to, or who's sleeping with who.

I find it offensive, on behalf of the religion at hand, that so many people pay lip service to "God" and haven't the faintest idea what their "God" truly is, or represents. As I said above, the belief structure itself is beautifully elegant. American Christians by and large seemed to have dumbed it down, and use it primarily as a means to assert their own bigotry and prejudiced views onto the world. I find that of the greatest offense, but these matters often go unchecked, as long as the offering plate is full of money, nobody really seems to care what the actual message is.

I came back to this study as I found out, that whether the Neo-Wiccans want to admit it or not, their "religion" has roots in Judaism, so does Christianity, obviously. And though I'm not to clear on the matter, I think Islam does too. Where Judaism is rooted, I have yet to learn. I've been told that it all traces back to the ancient Hindu religion, but I don't have a lot of reference work to back that up at this time. Now this isn't to confuse modern day (Neo-Wicca) with old Paganism, or heathens, gentiles, etc. Modern Wicca (and modern Witches generally) trace back their discipline to Gerald Gardner in the 1950's who was aided in assembling the rites by Alister Crowley who was into the Kabbalah, which is of Jewish origin. Virtually every "rite" I've ever read about in modern Wiccan text could have been taken straight from the grimoires of the dark ages which traces much of it's symbolism to old Jewish magick.

The ultra Occultist will swear that their magickal rites date back to Solomon, but I've found that such a view really doesn't hold up to historical scrutiny, and it would seem that most of the occultic magickal rites were probably conceived sometime between 1200-1600 A.D., mostly from Jewish Kabbalist.

it's a real fractal of information out there.. every answer yields three new questions!
"Our task is not to destroy but to build; not to hate but to find a place of yielding; not to polarize but to discover the points of commonality so that we can work together. Learn this lesson, dear friends, it will serve you well"
-Rebbe Zalman
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 3762
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Lebanon, Virginia

Re: Holy skirt day

Postby moonshadow » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:18 am

BTW Dan, if what I said upset you, I would NOT recommend you watch any of George Carlin's shows!
"Our task is not to destroy but to build; not to hate but to find a place of yielding; not to polarize but to discover the points of commonality so that we can work together. Learn this lesson, dear friends, it will serve you well"
-Rebbe Zalman
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 3762
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Lebanon, Virginia

Re: Holy skirt day

Postby oldsalt1 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:49 am

Maybe I overreacted to some extent but If I am working within a known sphere of influence , and someone within that group expresses an objection to something I said my immediate response would be to try and mitigate the disturbance and not further incite the situation by basically stating that you will say what you want and if you don't like it tough ****.

That being said I have worked with a number of versions of the bible and I have found that the NIV New International Version of the Life application study bible the easiest to work with and hopefully understand

As far as George Carlin is concerned I have tapes of most of his routines and have seen him live a number of times.
I don't have a problem with his irreverence because that is what he is known for and what is expected from his act

What I take umbrage at is when the irreverence comes from an unexpected source.
User avatar
oldsalt1
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 1802
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:25 pm
Location: Long Island, New York

Re: Holy skirt day

Postby moonshadow » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:59 am

oldsalt1 wrote:What I take umbrage at is when the irreverence comes from an unexpected source.


Come on oldsalt... what did you expect from your old buddy Moon Shadow...? :lol: :wink:

Everyone here knows how I get on this subject... that's probably why none of the other faithful here have really commented... "that's just Moon being Moon...." :P
"Our task is not to destroy but to build; not to hate but to find a place of yielding; not to polarize but to discover the points of commonality so that we can work together. Learn this lesson, dear friends, it will serve you well"
-Rebbe Zalman
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 3762
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Lebanon, Virginia

Re: Holy skirt day

Postby moonshadow » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:02 am

By the way.. as for easy readability, I enjoy the "new King James Version". Although I like to collect different bibles and other sacred works.
"Our task is not to destroy but to build; not to hate but to find a place of yielding; not to polarize but to discover the points of commonality so that we can work together. Learn this lesson, dear friends, it will serve you well"
-Rebbe Zalman
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 3762
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Lebanon, Virginia

Re: Holy skirt day

Postby rivegauche » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:57 am

Obviously the mods have the final say but I would contend that there is a difference between churches and religion. You have the additional problem of different versions of the Bible. I do not believe in God but I think the language of the King James Bible is a thing of great beauty. The reality is that most of the problems we skirt wearers have is directly or indirectly from people over-interpreting the Bible. The extent to which they are tolerant of what they see as departures from its wording is less a product of religion and more one of churches. Even churches of the same denomination differ greatly in their tolerance.

The wording is about men wearing clothes that pertain to a woman. In Fiji a skirt can also pertain to a man so this isn't one of the inconsistencies that churches seem to love. Likewise in Scotland a man in a kilt in church would be fine - he is in a MALE skirt so would not be regarded as doing anything contradicting the scriptures. The same passage in the Bible forbids people to wear clothes of mixed fibres and no one pays any attention to that. If the teachings of the Old Testament were universally observed all men would go around looking like Hasidic Jews. The reality is that churches and cherry pick their religion - and I reckon the much missed Dave Allen was mocking the former, not the latter. We non-believers are happy to support religious freedom and dignity. The problems do not stem from religion but from obsessive interpretation by people of that religion and imposing that on others. Our clothes issue is fairly trivial compared with society's interpretation of the religious validity (or not) of forms of muslim dress. I hope the mods don't think I have crossed the line here - I have tried to make the points in a way that should not upset anyone and have largely avoided discussing the religions themselves.
rivegauche
Active Member
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:05 pm

Re: Holy skirt day

Postby oldsalt1 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:22 am

Here's a point Jesus never wore a pair of pants. I realize there were no cameras and whenever you see a picture of a young Jesus its an interpretation but he is usually wearing a short tunic.

As for the Mods concern. I made a comment which came out wrong and it appeared to be a personal attack , which wasn't my intention.
User avatar
oldsalt1
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 1802
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:25 pm
Location: Long Island, New York

Re: Holy skirt day

Postby moonshadow » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:41 pm

oldsalt1 wrote:As for the Mods concern. I made a comment which came out wrong and it appeared to be a personal attack , which wasn't my intention.


Well for the record, I wasn't the least bit ruffled. I just figured "that's just oldsalt being oldsalt..." :lol: :wink:

I know you and I get into it once in a while, but I still think you're a pretty cool guy and enjoy your contributions to the site. I never take our disagreements personal.
"Our task is not to destroy but to build; not to hate but to find a place of yielding; not to polarize but to discover the points of commonality so that we can work together. Learn this lesson, dear friends, it will serve you well"
-Rebbe Zalman
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 3762
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Lebanon, Virginia

PreviousNext

Return to In the News / Advocacy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests