crfriend wrote:Sinned wrote:The scary thing, beachlion, is that it's happening right now. The middle class here is definitely being severely pruned and from what I can gather of the news the same is happening in the U.S.
Substitute the word "has" for the words "is happening". It's over. The middle class is dead. Get over it.
I'm not sure if I agree. A few friends and I have often discussed the "hows" and "whys" of what we observe. All of us (my friends and myself) generally make enough money so that we don't need any government assistance (we wouldn't qualify anyway), but yet we all agree do live a less than "middle class" life.
One friend lives in a 30 year old singlewide trailer outside of Johnson City TN, a current co-worker lives in a trailer on an acre of land, others still are about in my situation, living in modest single level homes, averaging at least 50 years old or better on small lots of less than an acre. We all drive vehicles that are generally at least 10 years old, perhaps we may have one car that's a little newer that we're still paying on, but everything else is old.
And while we're doing the best we can, getting by paycheck to paycheck, we look around and it seems everywhere there are enormous estates situated on large tracts of property. Even in areas that have been subdivided, sit houses that are easily $250,000, complete with a $60,000 pick up truck and a high dollar SUV and maybe some "toy" cars in the garage to tinker with. Four wheelers, perhaps an RV, seedoos, etc. You figure the price tag for all this combined would be at least a half mill, and you see this EVERYWHERE, even in the backwoods of Appalachia.
Appalachia is funny like that, it's literally not uncommon to see a mansion sitting right next to a trailer park.
So naturally, the question my friends and I often ponder about, is: "
what the hell do these people do for a living to afford these type of houses?"
Often the sarcastic answer I get is "DEBT!"
Oh don't give me that. Even a 30 year on at 3% interest, a straight up 250k is running just over $1,000 per month, plus you have to consider the taxes an insurance, which on a quarter mill place would probably tack on a couple hundred dollars per month (Russell County real estate tax rate is $0.63 per $100 assessed and Virginia assesses 100% of property value, although tax assessors tend to value property at about 80% of what the place will actually sell for, I.E. a 250k house will probably assess at $200k, and at 63 cents per hundred, makes an annual tax of $1260, or $105 per month). Then you figure the monthly cost of the vehicles sitting in the driveway, maybe about a total of $700 per month in car payments, insurance, add $200 per month, then there's the heating, electric, phone, and groceries.
1000 house
700 cars
200 taxes and insurance
300 heating and air conditioning (annual average)
100 phone and internet
----------------------------
2300 right there, not to mention groceries, vacations, toys like four wheelers, speed boats, RV's, etc.
That amount is almost exactly what I bring in monthly after income taxes and other deductions based on 40 hours per week.
So you figure, to live comfortably, you're going to want to at least double that (so you can actually
live the lifestyle)
You'd need a net of around 5000, then add 30% for income taxes and insurance (that's about what I pay): 1500,
5000+1500=6500 per month
6500X12= 78000/52=1500/40= $37.50 per hour
Gheesh... I'll never live to see the day....
Of course, then again, we're basically a single income family. I suppose if you had husband and wife making $20 per hour, then that's a combined income of $83,200 annually.
I guess I just answered my own question... it just takes two making at least $20 per hour, which is not really all that hard if both the man and woman have some kind of skills.
* * *
All this being said,
I've HEARD that property taxes alone in New England are astronomical! I've heard people tell me they've paid an upwards of $10,000 per year on modest little 1,000 sq ft homes!
How you all do that up there Carl, I have no idea. But it seems to me that an income of at least six figures is required to make ends meet where you're at.
Down here you can make it on 20 grand annually. You won't live high on the hog, but you won't starve and you'll have heat and a roof over your head. (I've seen one bedroom apartments list for as little as $250 per month in some neighborhoods, a two bedroom house can still be had for $550-$750 depending on the area)