Other side of the coin

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.

Re: Other side of the coin

Postby Daryl » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:21 pm

Grok wrote:
Daryl wrote:Exactly so, but it goes further than skirts. The writer laments that women must "monitor" the amount of skin they show, when the truth is the exact inverse of that: they can choose how much skin they want to show. Men do not have that luxury.
Women pretending that their freedoms are burdens is just a sign of how silly the everything-oppresses-women narrative has become.
Particularly when women can wear just about anything they feel like.

And BTW, I can imagine The Powers That Be dictating trousers for all. I expect that their dictates will be based on what is convenient for them, rather than what we would like to see.


That is absolutely the risk. Most women today would not protest for their right to wear a skirt. I learn this all the time in my interactions with women in the workplace and in public. Women don't view skirts as a freedom they have but as a burden, and when they don't feel compelled to wear them, they are happy to wear pants.

So our freedom and equality based arguments in favour of men wearing skirts are really much thinner and less compelling than we imagine they "ought" to be. Our best way forward, in fact I think our only way forward, is to seize the day while there is still some latitude and disorganisation in the opposition.

In a weird irony, only the trans community is actively asserting skirts as definitively feminine. Trans people wear skirts as part of gender expression designed to have others perceive "female" upon seeing them. Pre-op trans people in particular can effectively obscure their sex in a skirt but not in women's trousers. Women's trousers fit too closely for that purpose. Once the skirt is de-normalised for women even trans folk won't be able to assert it as a rights issue based on gender expression.
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Re: Other side of the coin

Postby skirtyscot » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:17 pm

There are still occasions when most women choose to wear a dress or skirt. Formal occasions, mostly. They would not like to have the choice taken away from them, and I doubt it will happen.

Plenty of women wear skirts or dresses to work hereabouts. There are a few in my office who rarely turn up in trousers. (Also a few who always wear trousers.) And teenage girls overwhelmingly choose miniskirts to wear to school.

They enjoy the freedom to choose. I think there is plenty of mileage in men arguing for the same freedom.
Keep on skirting,

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Re: Other side of the coin

Postby SkirtsDad » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:47 pm

Daryl wrote:That is absolutely the risk. Most women today would not protest for their right to wear a skirt. I learn this all the time in my interactions with women in the workplace and in public. Women don't view skirts as a freedom they have but as a burden, and when they don't feel compelled to wear them, they are happy to wear pants.

So our freedom and equality based arguments in favour of men wearing skirts are really much thinner and less compelling than we imagine they "ought" to be. Our best way forward, in fact I think our only way forward, is to seize the day while there is still some latitude and disorganisation in the opposition.

In a weird irony, only the trans community is actively asserting skirts as definitively feminine. Trans people wear skirts as part of gender expression designed to have others perceive "female" upon seeing them. Pre-op trans people in particular can effectively obscure their sex in a skirt but not in women's trousers. Women's trousers fit too closely for that purpose. Once the skirt is de-normalised for women even trans folk won't be able to assert it as a rights issue based on gender expression.


I agree with you Daryl. The norm, in my experience, is for women to wear trousers, and are happy to do so. Several of my female friends admit to having less than 5 dresses, whilst they have more trousers and jeans. So, with less and less women wearing skirts and dresses, why would anyone expect men to take these up in any great numbers?

Again yes, the trans community for the most part does seem to use skirts and dresses as symbol for femininity, but I am yet to grasp the connection in today's era. When I look at some I just see "Stepford Wives". This could probably not have been truer for my sister's partner who, although I never saw a photo, I could imagine dressed as his mother probably did. He/she now does all the housework and cooking whilst my sister does the DIY.

The whole subject is complicated and I presume that most, if not all of us, are here because of our own independent issues and afflictions which lead us to seek like minded people.

The following article highlights a setback to the skirting/killted community: :(
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/kilt-wearing-barmen-forced-ditch-7908738
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Re: Other side of the coin

Postby skirtyscot » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:15 pm

I've seen that story before, SD, and the pub dealt with the problem in exactly the wrong way. They should have ejected the offenders and made it clear that such behaviour would not be tolerated. Public places are full of notices about not abusing the staff - railway stations spring to mind. Why should kilted barmen not enjoy the same protection? Trivially easy thought experiment: what would happen to a male customer having a look or a feel up the skirt of a female member of staff? So I don't think that article is on point here. If anything, it's an argument in favour of men wearing skirts. The more we do it, the sooner the novelty will wear off and people generally will see "upkilting" as invasive and unacceptable, just like upskirting.
Keep on skirting,

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Re: Other side of the coin

Postby Feeling freedom » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:23 pm

IN the 16 to 1800's men and women were equally expressive when it came to fashion. It was about personal style not gender expression. We all may be old souls that lived in that era and want it back. I don't believe skirts are an expression of feminine since men have worn them throughout history, including tights. It is a common misconception.
Personal style is important to me. Even when my outfits may contain skirts, tights and great ankle or riding length boots! I enjoy fashion and am excited to get in on the conversations with the like minded!
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Re: Other side of the coin

Postby Daryl » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:41 am

Feeling freedom wrote:IN the 16 to 1800's men and women were equally expressive when it came to fashion. It was about personal style not gender expression. We all may be old souls that lived in that era and want it back. I don't believe skirts are an expression of feminine since men have worn them throughout history, including tights. It is a common misconception.


I totally agree. In fact, men frequently wore pretty things too.
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Re: Other side of the coin

Postby Daryl » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:51 am

skirtyscot wrote:There are still occasions when most women choose to wear a dress or skirt. Formal occasions, mostly. They would not like to have the choice taken away from them, and I doubt it will happen.

Plenty of women wear skirts or dresses to work hereabouts. There are a few in my office who rarely turn up in trousers. (Also a few who always wear trousers.) And teenage girls overwhelmingly choose miniskirts to wear to school.

They enjoy the freedom to choose. I think there is plenty of mileage in men arguing for the same freedom.


Work is not a "formal occasion". I really hope you are right, but another "feminine" habit has already been disallowed in many workplaces: perfume. The pushback against skirts not being allowed is likely to not be very great IMO, and may only come about as an incidental exclusion if pants become the mandated norm in school uniforms. Women won't expect or care to go to work in something they never went to school in so when corporate dress codes simply do not even mention skirts as permitted, why would any woman protest?
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Re: Other side of the coin

Postby Daryl » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:57 am

SkirtsDad wrote:The following article highlights a setback to the skirting/killted community: :(
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/kilt-wearing-barmen-forced-ditch-7908738


Man, that is so disappointing. Talk about the wrong way to handle the issue: punish the victims.

Sounds like an opportunity to open a competing business next door, too.
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Re: Other side of the coin

Postby webboy42 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:40 am

Daryl wrote:Work is not a "formal occasion". I really hope you are right, but another "feminine" habit has already been disallowed in many workplaces: perfume. ...

Given how a lot of women apply it (liberal enough for the smell to hang around long after the wearer is gone), I don't think that's a huge loss. To be fair though, some men are just as bad with aftershave.
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Re: Other side of the coin

Postby Feeling freedom » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:47 am

Purfume affects my breathing, glad to not have it around.
Personal style is important to me. Even when my outfits may contain skirts, tights and great ankle or riding length boots! I enjoy fashion and am excited to get in on the conversations with the like minded!
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Re: Other side of the coin

Postby Daryl » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:59 am

Feeling freedom wrote:Purfume affects my breathing, glad to not have it around.


I empathise with that although I am the opposite. I've always enjoyed the sensory assault of a woman wearing a nice powerful perfume.
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Re: Other side of the coin

Postby crfriend » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:43 pm

Daryl wrote:I've always enjoyed the sensory assault of a woman wearing a nice powerful perfume.

It's a matter of degree. In moderation, it's fine or even welcome; however, applied with a fire-hose, or something that disagrees with your sense of smell, it's another thing altogether.
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Re: Other side of the coin

Postby Jim » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:51 pm

Many perfumes give me headaches. There are many of us with chemical sensitivities.
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Re: Other side of the coin

Postby Grok » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:24 pm

SkirtsDad wrote:
Daryl wrote:
Our best way forward, in fact I think our only way forward, is to seize the day while there is still some latitude and disorganisation in the opposition.
I agree with you Daryl. The norm, in my experience, is for women to wear trousers, and are happy to do so. Several of my female friends admit to having less than 5 dresses, whilst they have more trousers and jeans. So, with less and less women wearing skirts and dresses, why would anyone expect men to take these up in any great numbers?

I think that the men who would adopt skirts are Skirtonians-people who like skirts/enjoy wearing skirts. Some women are Skirtonians too. Probably both groups are minorities of their respective genders.
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Re: Other side of the coin

Postby mishawakaskirt » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:43 pm

Daryl wrote:
SkirtsDad wrote:The following article highlights a setback to the skirting/killted community: :(
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/kilt-wearing-barmen-forced-ditch-7908738


Man, that is so disappointing. Talk about the wrong way to handle the issue: punish the victims.

Sounds like an opportunity to open a competing business next door, too.
. Put up a sign at the entrance. That there is a keep your hands off policy. Touching not acceptable, you'll be asked to pay your bill and leave.
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Avoid the middle man, wear a kilt or skirt.
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