Gender neutral uniforms in all Scottish schools

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Gender neutral uniforms in all Scottish schools

Postby skirtingtoday » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:07 pm

Front page news in the newspaper "i" today. (based on article below)

https://inews.co.uk/news/education/scot ... -uniforms/
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms in all Scottish schools

Postby beachlion » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:16 pm

It looks like the snowball is rolling down hill, gathering snow bit by bit. I hope the ball gets momentum before the sun melts it back to water. :wink:
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms in all Scottish schools

Postby crfriend » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:55 pm

skirtingtoday wrote:Front page news in the newspaper "i" today. (based on article below)

https://inews.co.uk/news/education/scot ... -uniforms/

Once again into the breach...

This:
The move was also backed by the party’s UK deputy leader, Jo Swinson, who campaigned for girls to be allowed to wear trousers when she was a student at Douglas Academy in Milngavie.
sums it up nicely.

Put bluntly, if nothing gets done to alter society's perspective on guys wearing nothing but trousers all that's going to happen is that the move will dumb down the look for girls to wear trousers when they feel like it and skirts when they feel like it, all the while keeping the guys in trousers. It's not "uniform" pressure with the guys, it's cultural and peer pressure. Those last two are very tough nuts to crack.

It's nice to see such things bubble to the surface now and then, but the sad fact is that without a non-sexually-charged driver -- and the frequently erroneous classifications that get made because of that driver -- nothing is likely to happen regarding matters of "one tube or two".
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms in all Scottish schools

Postby trainspotter48 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:03 pm

It's interesting to note that this is in Scotland, which is traditionally the home of the kilt for men.
While I believe that not many Scots wear a kilt as an everyday garment, my wife tells me that when she went to college in the mid 1960s, she encountered a guy from the Isle of Skye who hadn't worn tr***ers (or breeks as he called them) until going to a boarding secondary school in Edinburgh at the age of 11.
Maybe we will see the lads adopt the kilt!!
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms in all Scottish schools

Postby crfriend » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:44 am

trainspotter48 wrote:Maybe we will see the lads adopt the kilt!!

One can hope.
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms in all Scottish schools

Postby Caultron » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:14 am

trainspotter48 wrote:...Maybe we will see the lads adopt the kilt!!

That'd definitely be cool, but it'd only be an option if the bodies in charge added a kilt to the uniform code. Like, the students would need to be able to choose among traditional trousers, traditional uniform skirts, and kilts.

How many options do these uniform codes usually offer?
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms in all Scottish schools

Postby denimini » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:00 am

I just read it as everyone wearing pants which would comply with being gender neutral, with everyone having the same uniform.
This could be quite a negative move for males wanting to wear skirts, by creating equality by removing skirts completely.


https://inews.co.uk/news/education/scot ... -uniforms/ wrote: “On the practical side, we’ve had really cold weather lately and for girls wearing skirts can be incredibly uncomfortable. I’ve been wearing two pairs of tights every day,” she said.


I would like to hear; "On the practical side, when we have a spell of warm weather the boys are missing the coolness and comfort of the option of skirts."
THey might just offer shorts as the gender neutral summer uniform, allowing physical activity for all equally.

I fear there is a growing modesty phobia with skirts even as girls uniform.
https://inews.co.uk/news/education/scot ... -uniforms/ wrote: “It also encourages physical activity if girls have more practical options. That’s already a problem – we see lower levels of physical activity in girls than in boys.”

Japan doesn't seem to be so concerned with that one. Tennis dresses apparalelly don't restrict activity.
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms in all Scottish schools

Postby Daryl » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:49 am

skirtingtoday wrote:Front page news in the newspaper "i" today. (based on article below)

https://inews.co.uk/news/education/scot ... -uniforms/


Maybe I'm just getting crankier as I get older, but I'd give 2 to 1 that what they will come up with is trousers only for both sexes. I note that the focus was on girls being forced to wear skirts and how that limits physical activities for girls and makes them colder.
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms in all Scottish schools

Postby skirtyscot » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:28 pm

It's the usual combination of letting girls get away from the old norm of wearing skirts, and letting a small minority of people express themselves by using those old norms.

Will we end up with everyone in trews except the transgirls? Which would leave them sticking out like a sore thumb, though that is not what they want.

Actually, round my way the girls have the usual choice and they almost all go for miniskirts. So the result which you pessimists are predicting is not happening. I appreciate that that is merely the current fashion, and it could change in a couple of years quite easily.

If everyone is allowed to choose between skirt or trousers, it is inevitable that a few boys will wear a skirt on day one, for a laugh. That gets us no further forward; it's in the same category as boys wearing skirts as a protest against not being allowed to wear shorts in hot weather. Some may do it out of curiosity, just to see what it's like or because they're being egged on by (probably female) friends. That only helps if they do it again. What we would want is for boys to persevere until the novelty wears off (and the up skirt pics on social media die down). It would need someone confident, popular and a bit counter-cultural. Or maybe just an attention - seeker!

So there will be some, now and again. But will there ever be enough for it to become an unremarkable sight? Not necessarily common; come to Scotland for a fortnight and you will probably see no men in kilts except in tourist areas or wedding parties, but it is accepted at other times and nobody bats an eye at it. Maybe it will: if just one boy wore a skirt a couple of times a week, everyone would get used to it soon enough. The threshold is actually quite low.

Scotland is not the most likely place for it to catch on, IMO. The weather is terrible, if you wear a skirt you need tights as well, most of the year. The tights are an extra hurdle to clear, in the mind of both the wearer and the viewer. A hot country is a better bet.
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms in all Scottish schools

Postby rivegauche » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:12 pm

The comparison of skirts and kilts is predictable but irrelevant in this context. Though in literal terms a kilt is a skirt, people do not think of it like that. Some people wear it with bare legs and sandals, perhaps a T-shirt, while the traditionalists moan that a kilt must be worn just the way they say. I reality the reason this is happening I Scotland is because it is a very liberal country. Until recently most of the leaders of our political parties were non-heterosexuals, including the leaders of the second and third largest parties. No one cared about their sexuality. This is a country where a man can wear a skirt without any problems - I once had a woman look me up and down and give a withering head shake - but that is as bad as it ever got in hundreds of outings. Unlike other parts of the UK we welcome immigrants and except for certain parts of Glasgow there is total religious tolerance. I do not know how this came about in a country that 40 years ago was in the grip of the Presbyterians, but it has, and a jolly good thing too. So if we are the first country to officially welcome males in skirts it is because that is the right thing to do, not because of kilts.
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms in all Scottish schools

Postby Stu » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:49 pm

As others have suggested, this is really just about girls being given a choice. They know perfectly well that, whatever the rules say students can wear, boys are not going to wear skirts because social pressures will stop them from doing so. Consequently, on the face of it, this is a move for equality, but that's a lie. The reality is that they are privileging girls by giving them a choice not enjoyed by boys.
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms in all Scottish schools

Postby crfriend » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:59 pm

Stu wrote:The reality is that they are privileging girls by giving them a choice not enjoyed by boys.

Indeed, for it's not the school "dress codes" that are the obstacle: the obstacle is societal and peer pressure on the boys to conform to the "trousers only" "rule". In a nut-shell, this is what we at SkirtCafe are busy trying to combat.

Boys and men can wear skirts, and some brave ones do -- and it doesn't diminish our masculinity one whit. If anything, aside from inveterate knuckle-draggers, we're likely regarded with some esteem as individualists in a world awash in conformity. There's a reason I put such weight on believability and honesty in what we garb ourselves in -- it's because we are trying to change the perception of the world around us. That can be a heavy burden -- and it's not for everybody, because if it was we'd see a heck of a lot more guys in skirts.
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms in all Scottish schools

Postby SkirtsDad » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:12 am

I am really puzzled why so many here are being negative and sceptical about a ruling that would seem to be exactly what we would be fighting for if we could be bothered to lobby. The article clearly says “Instead of saying boys have to wear trousers and girls have to wear skirts, schools can say pupils can choose between skirts or trousers" so why are people suggesting that school uniforms will be whittled down to trousers only? Do you want the authorities to force boys to wear skirts? What more can they possibly do apart from ensuring that schools remove all gender bias from their uniforms?

As crfriend notes, the problem FOR US is society.... Most of society does not have an issue with the status quo. I think it is time to get over the anti-feminist stance and stop bleeding about girls getting more choices. The reality is that women fought hard to be able to wear trousers and not because they wanted a fashion choice. Men as a collective group have no interest in fighting to be able to wear skirts everywhere because trousers, that the majority are happy with, are not seen as a symbol of male oppression.

I think it is great that someone, in this case Scotland, is leading the way in terms of government policy, but not to overlook the schools, many across various parts the UK have already made the transition. These are things I would have thought that we should all be embracing.
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms in all Scottish schools

Postby Stu » Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:17 am

Skirtsdad

The point we are making is that this isn't about boys being able to wear skirts and it never was; this is simply a response to the feminist lobby pushing for more rights for girls. The claim that boys can wear skirts is dishonest - it gives a illusion of equality and nothing more. In reality, boys can't wear skirts for school; the authorities know they can't and they wouldn't be pushing this through if they really believed there would be masses of boys taking up the opportunity. The inequality remains.

So why did I and others comment? Firstly, I think we should call out dishonesty when we encounter it, especially when it comes from government and relates to an area of interest to us. Secondly, this forum has been around for more than two decades and we have seen such moves before, and seen them come to nothing. Unless this actually encourages boys to try skirts for school, and there is zero chance it will, then it is nothing worth celebrating.

Lastly, I don't buy any argument which suggests that skirts are or have ever been seen as a symbol of female oppression. Women are not oppressed in our society and haven't been for a very long time, if ever.
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms in all Scottish schools

Postby skirtyscot » Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:45 am

Stu wrote:The reality is that they are privileging girls by giving them a choice not enjoyed by boys.


I disagree. Except in private schools, girls already have the choice of trousers or skirts. The new announcement is entirely about letting pupils dress according to their gender. Although extending the choice to all pupils would obviously let any boy wear a skirt if he had the balls to do it, nobody expects that to happen. The only ones who are expected to make use of the new freedom are transgirls. Transboys can wear trousers already.

No doubt transgirls will be widely celebrated for turning up in a skirt, especially if it is the first public declaration of being transgender. (Though there will doubtless be plenty of abuse as well: children can be right bastards.) It remains to be seen whether the same support will be given to the individualist lad who chooses to wear a skirt regularly because he likes wearing it. The rules will let him, but will the staff and pupils really be on his side or will they just think he's weird? I'm optimistic about that: after a while most people would accept it with a "Why not?". But the first boy will need thick skin and determination.
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