More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonconfor

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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby Ralph » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:38 pm

The problem with the whole notion of genderfluid/nonbinary/binary/cisgender/etc. is that it all relies on a very shaky premise that defines what "gender" is in the first place. Physical biology aside, what traits mark one as "male" or "female"?

I submit that exclusive of biology, the whole concept of an inner/spiritual/psychological gender is pure fiction (I've learned the hard way not to say that in a group of transfolk!) If you say "Inside I feel more female than male", what specific difference do you identify that makes you more female? Any trait at all can be found to some extent or another in both biological sexes.

More nurturing? There are men who practically radiate testosterone who make excellent fathers with a highly developed nurturing instinct.
More emotionally fragile? First off it's archaic and sexist to assume that's a common feminine trait, and men can be emotionally fragile too.
More aggressive? I know women who are both physically and mentally aggressive, yet have never once considered themselves any less than 100% female.
Prefers to wear dresses to trousers? Well, I think we collectively demonstrate that isn't a uniquely feminine trait.
More analytical, or less? More imaginative, or less?

You get the idea. So yes, when I say I think "gender-nonconforming" is an accurate way to describe me it's only on the basis of acknowledging that *by society's rigid gender roles* I do not conform to either of the two boxes. Personally I don't believe those boxes even exist. How many traditionally accepted mascule and feminine traits are cultural artifacts, and how many have at least some roots in biology (testosterone vs. estrogen, muscles or skeletal build, etc.)?

If we could definitively prove a biological link to gender dysphoria, I'd be able to understand the concept better. But all the googling I've done in the past decade on the subject has only given me "Results are inconclusive"... such as this one:
Are the Brains of Transgender People Different from Those of Cisgender People?

Please understand, I don't mean to trivialize the hell that I know transgender men and women go through daily... I'm just at a loss to understand what leads a person to believe that he or she is innately male or female.
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby Grok » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:43 pm

As I recall, I once linked to an article about Tomboys. The article indicated that Tomboys are born, not made. Little girls (who identify as females) prefer boy things-toys and activities they we usually associate with little boy).

If I understand correctly, they are gender nonconforming due to a partial male imprint on their gender map.
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby crfriend » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:35 pm

Grok wrote:http://aebrain.blogspot.com/p/transsexual-and-intersex-gender-identity.html

Same author, same axe.

Are the hypotheses reproducible?
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby crfriend » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:47 pm

Grok wrote:As I recall, I once linked to an article about Tomboys. The article indicated that Tomboys are born, not made. Little girls (who identify as females) prefer boy things-toys and activities they we usually associate with little boy).

It's worth recalling that tomboys have always been tolerated and, quite recently, actively encouraged and coddled in the behaviour. This is one of the things that has pushed "femininity" way into the "traditionally 'masculine'" space and caused the dramatic shrinkage of "masculinity" into the horrid parody that is "machismo".

Coddling a seemingly-innate behaviour is very much akin to creating it, especially if it would have gone away on its own.

Just as there have always been tomboys, there have also been "janegirls" -- and the latter were, and still are, viciously put down for their behaviour. And we wonder why we're in the mess that we are.
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby STEVIE » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:41 am

crfriend wrote:Just as there have always been tomboys, there have also been "janegirls" -- and the latter were, and still are, viciously put down for their behaviour. And we wonder why we're in the mess that we are.



From my experience, I would certainlly have came into the Janegirl category as a child. However, the stricture was really made more vicious by being completely insidious by its very nature. I have previously said that I have no memory of being told that I could not wear skirts as a child, let alone physically punished for it.
Having female siblings, I did have some opportunity for experiment from a very early age.
Equally, I am also quite certain that my parents, siblings and wider family had no idea of my preferences.
My parents were deceased before I came to my own conclusions on the skirts. My surviving sisters' reactions were an almost perfect affirmation of this assertion.
I had 5 sisters growing-up and 3 by the time I opened up. The news came as a surprise, if not a shock! The reaction was not all sweetness and light either and I was about fifty by then.
Mess indeed, mine lasted some 40 years or so and is still being unravelled today.
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby pelmut » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:12 am

Ralph wrote:The problem with the whole notion of genderfluid/nonbinary/binary/cisgender/etc. is that it all relies on a very shaky premise that defines what "gender" is in the first place. Physical biology aside, what traits mark one as "male" or "female"?

It is much easier to understand if the terms "male" and "female" are reserved for biological sex only and the terms "masculine" and "feminine" are used for gender.  It almost becomes self-explanatory (or it would do if only people wouldn't keep using the word "gender" when they mean "sex" ).
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby Pdxfashionpioneer » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:40 pm

Just as there have always been tomboys, there have also been "janegirls" -- and the latter were, and still are, viciously put down for their behaviour.


Not so!

You need to get out more Carl. The acceptance and support that was shown to Jake in Tomgirl is quite common.

Or maybe you just need enough anti-depressants on a regular basis to recognize that the glass really is half-full. :lol: :wink:
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby moonshadow » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:18 pm

pelmut wrote:
Ralph wrote:The problem with the whole notion of genderfluid/nonbinary/binary/cisgender/etc. is that it all relies on a very shaky premise that defines what "gender" is in the first place. Physical biology aside, what traits mark one as "male" or "female"?

It is much easier to understand if the terms "male" and "female" are reserved for biological sex only and the terms "masculine" and "feminine" are used for gender.  It almost becomes self-explanatory (or it would do if only people wouldn't keep using the word "gender" when they mean "sex" ).


Wouldn't that make a masculine woman or a feminine man a contradiction in terms?
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby moonshadow » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:25 pm

Here's another mental noodle

What makes a male a man?

What makes a female a woman?

These are not rhetorical questions...

Edit: Added strike through
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby Ralph » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:05 pm

pelmut wrote:It is much easier to understand if the terms "male" and "female" are reserved for biological sex only and the terms "masculine" and "feminine" are used for gender.  It almost becomes self-explanatory (or it would do if only people wouldn't keep using the word "gender" when they mean "sex" ).


I hear ya, but that just kicks the can down the road. OK, so we accept that "male" and "female" are the biological sexes. So let's go back to my question and do the appropriate string substitution:
ralph wrote:Physical biology aside, what traits mark one as "male masculine" or "female feminine"?
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby crfriend » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:14 pm

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:The acceptance and support that was shown to Jake in Tomgirl is quite common.

I would posit that it's not as common as we'd necessarily like, nor is it probably all that common "in the wild". We need to be careful not to fall into the "echo chamber" mentality. The world is still a hostile place, and the price for "getting it wrong" can be a steep one.

Or maybe you just need enough anti-depressants on a regular basis to recognize that the glass really is half-full. :lol: :wink:

The glass is twice as big as it needs to be. :wink:
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Re: Brains Male, Female, or Balanced

Postby Grok » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:44 pm

Theory that brains come in 3 basic types: 1. Male. 2. Female. 3. Balanced

https://365tests.com/personality-tests/ ... ale-brain/
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby pelmut » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:57 pm

moonshadow wrote:
pelmut wrote:...
It is much easier to understand if the terms "male" and "female" are reserved for biological sex only and the terms "masculine" and "feminine" are used for gender.  It almost becomes self-explanatory (or it would do if only people wouldn't keep using the word "gender" when they mean "sex" ).


Wouldn't that make a masculine woman or a feminine man a contradiction in terms?

Sort of, because "man" and "woman" are words that generally combine elements of biological sex, gender, social role and sometimes sexuality. Their meanings are only clear when all those attributes are aligned the way Society expects them to be; as soon as gender doesn't match Society's expectations based on apparent sex, those words become unclear.  In the case of a "feminine man" or "masculine woman", it wouldn't be contradictory if the words "man" or "woman" had their meanings restricted to sex only - and the words "feminine" or "masculine" refer only to gender.
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby pelmut » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:26 am

ralph wrote:...Physical biology aside, what traits mark one as "male masculine" or "female feminine"?

That is an absolute minefield of a question !
There are two parts to the answer: one is that it is something you feel but cannot measure and the other is that it is how you respond to that feeling by interacting with the society in which you find yourself (which is what psychologists have wrongly used as a measure of gender in the past and made a perfect hash of it).  Not everyone feels they are able to respond in the way they would like, so it is not always valid to infer a person's gender from their gender presentation.

Just to complicate it still further, many aspects of gender presentation are not specific to gender; skirt-wearing is a perfect illustration of this.  I wear a skirt because it is comfortable and makes me feel more feminine, most members of this forum also wear skirts because they feel comfortable but definitely not because they feel feminine in them.  They are justifiably offended if someone infers their gender from their mode of dress and gets it wrong.  

In another culture where most of the men wore skirts, nobody would make that assumption - but they might assume that a man who was prepared to scrub a floor was feminine or homosexual or goodness-knows-what, because in that culture only women do those sorts of jobs.
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby crfriend » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:23 am

pelmut wrote:There are two parts to the answer: one is that it is something you feel but cannot measure and the other is that it is how you respond to that feeling by interacting with the society in which you find yourself (which is what psychologists have wrongly used as a measure of gender in the past and made a perfect hash of it).  Not everyone feels they are able to respond in the way they would like, so it is not always valid to infer a person's gender from their gender presentation.

Of note is that "society" is, in modern times, a moving target. I'm an all-up guy -- and a pretty straight-laced one at that, and I have precisely no difficulty in responding to others with empathy and compassion if the need is there; however, that is frowned upon for men today, and I'm using the capabilities I grew up with and was counselled in using wisely. Unfortunately, any time a guy responds with anything much other than brute force today he's labelled as "being less than a 'man'". The terrifying thing is that this is a societal change that has occurred within a single human lifetime. What have we done to ourselves?
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