Indeed. What if you are simply a male who wants to wear skirts as a male?Caultron wrote:Although the transgender liberation has helped our cause, I see it as a parallel development and not something we're directly involved with.moonshadow wrote:...
Gender neutral uniforms
Re: Gender neutral uniforms
Re: Gender neutral uniforms
Then wear skirts and skip the boobs, bra, makeup, wigs, and surgery.Grok wrote:Indeed. What if you are simply a male who wants to wear skirts as a male?
I can't see anyone actually pushing you to do that stuff, and I sure can't see any of us doing it just to satisfy someone else's stereotype.
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.
caultron
caultron
- Jim
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms
As I said, "Whether that's right or wrong is not what I want to make a point about here." We do not all base our views of right or wrong on the same premises, so I feel it would be unprofitable to expand on this here.Caultron wrote:Why is that?Jim wrote:...I have trouble approving of the transgender movement...
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms
That is the key to the whole thing, society seems unable to let go of the 'binary myth' which lumps everything together:Caultron wrote:Then wear skirts and skip the boobs, bra, makeup, wigs, and surgery.Grok wrote:Indeed. What if you are simply a male who wants to wear skirts as a male?
I can't see anyone actually pushing you to do that stuff, and I sure can't see any of us doing it just to satisfy someone else's stereotype.
MALE = masculine, penis, baldness, beard, body hair, deep voice, aggressive, feral, competetive, trousers.
FEMALE = feminine, vagina, breasts, long hair, hairless skin, high voice, submissive, domesticated, co-operative, skirt.
Because this binary myth is drummed into everyone as an indisputable truth, any ordinary member of the public seeing a skirt will immediately expect all the other things in the list to apply too. Transpeople are perfectly aware of this and those who are transitioning try to tick off as many items as possible on the list so as to leave no doubt about their correct gender. There is no reason at all why Men in Skirts should feel any pressure to do that; transgender people are going along with the binary myth, whereas Men in Skirts are going aganst it.
Last edited by pelmut on Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms
I think gender is pretty much a straight binary for 98% of people. Yes, there is a tiny minority who have either a physiological or psychological ambivalence, but they comprise a tiny minority.
Of course, we define both masculinity and femininity according to a series of characteristics and there are plenty of exceptions when it comes to individuals and we need to build in some flexibility in our perceptions to allow for these. This doesn't change the reality, though. Humans, like other synapsids, are as a general rule divided into male and female.
Of course, we define both masculinity and femininity according to a series of characteristics and there are plenty of exceptions when it comes to individuals and we need to build in some flexibility in our perceptions to allow for these. This doesn't change the reality, though. Humans, like other synapsids, are as a general rule divided into male and female.
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms
Your 98% number depends on the definition of "a straight binary" and the definition of "male" and "female". However you define all these terms, I think there are a lot more people out there who do not fit into the stereotypical gender buckets than we thought. When I was growing up, I was a boy. There was no question about that, or any other alternative; "transgender" was not an option. So I grew up as a boy.Stu wrote:I think gender is pretty much a straight binary for 98% of people. Yes, there is a tiny minority who have either a physiological or psychological ambivalence, but they comprise a tiny minority.
Of course, we define both masculinity and femininity according to a series of characteristics and there are plenty of exceptions when it comes to individuals and we need to build in some flexibility in our perceptions to allow for these. This doesn't change the reality, though. Humans, like other synapsids, are as a general rule divided into male and female.
Today, "transgender" is very much an option; in fact, I rather wonder whether peer pressure is pushing people towards it. A boy who gets teased because he's not a big hairy stud, or a girl who gets teased because she's tagged as a "tomboy" find themselves in places like Reddit or YouTube where everyone is describing their transition and extolling the virtues of changing genders or declaring themselves as genderfluid. Not only is the option available now, but it's painted in a very positive light. Plus our society is much more open to the whole concept of gender not being a straight binary.
So what does this have to do with men who want to wear a skirt not because they want to transition to female, but because they think that the idea that only women wear skirts is silly? Generally I think it helps us. There are negative aspects; some people who see a man wearing a skirt will assume that he is on the transgender road. But the same softening of society's rigid ideas about gender tends to affect the way that people perceive clothing. The same idea that gender is not binary has at least an imperfect analogy to men wearing skirts.
And as an aside . . . I am late to the party on this one . . . a comment on the article and subject that started this thread, which if you've forgotten was the news article on boys being allowed to wear skirts as a school uniform. I do think this is a positive development. I can quibble with the words in the article, and the fact that it seems that boys who wear skirts as a school uniform will be tagged as transgender, but I bet there are a fair number of male students who will wear a skirt just to make the point that they can, rather like some of us. As these kids grow up, the idea of a male in a skirt is going to be a whole lot less foreign to them. That's a good thing.
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms
Orange Apple
I sort of half agree with you.
My 98% relates to those who either don't relate to the gender that was assumed at birth (i.e those with gender dysphoria, or some physiological issue such as being intersex) and perceive themselves as members of the opposite sex, and the minuscule minority who don't wish to be defined as either male or female.
I am not saying that everyone among the remaining 98% has each and every psychological and physical characteristic that we see as emblematic of their biological sex. As an example, we see that some lesbian women exhibit preferences, mannerisms and behaviours that we more often associate with males - and they are attracted to women - but they are entirely happy being women. Likewise, some men have characteristics that are more feminine: maybe they like babies. At the opposite end of the spectrum, I can give you a striking example of this with a young man I see who works at a supermarket close to my work and who is the brother of one of my students. He wears full make-up, has long painted fingernails and feminine jewellery and has a distinctly feminine hairstyle and is more often taken to be a girl. A while back, his sister told me he has a girlfriend and I was astonished as I had assumed he was gay (my bad!). I saw him in our library a while afterwards and he introduced me to his girlfriend who was well over six feet tall, broad build and with cropped hair - and one could be forgiven for assuming she was either a fresh-faced young man or a large, androgynous female. Oddly, the couple looked perfectly suited - except the masculine partner was actually the female and the pretty looking "girl" was actually the boy. His sister told me she was expecting an invitation to their engagement party in August and I have absolutely no doubt he will be the one flashing off a diamond engagement while his fiancee with be knocking back pints of beer! And, purely hypothetically, if they get married and want a white wedding....? He would make a stunning bride - his girlfriend would look like a man in drag! Now here is where you and I would probably disagree because, so far as I am concerned, he is one of my 98%. He is a perfectly ordinary heterosexual, CIS-gendered man - he just prefers to adopt aspects of his appearance which are conventionally feminine in our culture.
I am struggling to see any feminine characteristics in myself. However, I want to see skirts completely de-gendered so that they are as conventional for males as they are for females. When a school specifies that boys can wear skirts expressly because they want to facilitate trans boys expressing their feminine side, this implicates that skirts = feminine, so boys who do not want to be perceived as trans, or feminine, should avoid them. It is not challenging the existing taboo - it is reinforcing it.
I sort of half agree with you.
My 98% relates to those who either don't relate to the gender that was assumed at birth (i.e those with gender dysphoria, or some physiological issue such as being intersex) and perceive themselves as members of the opposite sex, and the minuscule minority who don't wish to be defined as either male or female.
I am not saying that everyone among the remaining 98% has each and every psychological and physical characteristic that we see as emblematic of their biological sex. As an example, we see that some lesbian women exhibit preferences, mannerisms and behaviours that we more often associate with males - and they are attracted to women - but they are entirely happy being women. Likewise, some men have characteristics that are more feminine: maybe they like babies. At the opposite end of the spectrum, I can give you a striking example of this with a young man I see who works at a supermarket close to my work and who is the brother of one of my students. He wears full make-up, has long painted fingernails and feminine jewellery and has a distinctly feminine hairstyle and is more often taken to be a girl. A while back, his sister told me he has a girlfriend and I was astonished as I had assumed he was gay (my bad!). I saw him in our library a while afterwards and he introduced me to his girlfriend who was well over six feet tall, broad build and with cropped hair - and one could be forgiven for assuming she was either a fresh-faced young man or a large, androgynous female. Oddly, the couple looked perfectly suited - except the masculine partner was actually the female and the pretty looking "girl" was actually the boy. His sister told me she was expecting an invitation to their engagement party in August and I have absolutely no doubt he will be the one flashing off a diamond engagement while his fiancee with be knocking back pints of beer! And, purely hypothetically, if they get married and want a white wedding....? He would make a stunning bride - his girlfriend would look like a man in drag! Now here is where you and I would probably disagree because, so far as I am concerned, he is one of my 98%. He is a perfectly ordinary heterosexual, CIS-gendered man - he just prefers to adopt aspects of his appearance which are conventionally feminine in our culture.
I am struggling to see any feminine characteristics in myself. However, I want to see skirts completely de-gendered so that they are as conventional for males as they are for females. When a school specifies that boys can wear skirts expressly because they want to facilitate trans boys expressing their feminine side, this implicates that skirts = feminine, so boys who do not want to be perceived as trans, or feminine, should avoid them. It is not challenging the existing taboo - it is reinforcing it.
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms
Hmmm. Not sure. Your initial statement was, "I think gender is pretty much a straight binary for 98% of people." Is he really a "perfectly ordinary heterosexual?" He's hetrosexual in terms of his sexual preference, but not male in terms of his gender presentation. I would place him outside of the 98%. Doesn't matter; it's a function of our definitions of terms. And the amazing thing for me is that behavior like this isn't really very remarkable these days, where only a decade or so ago it would probably not have been an option for him. Makes wearing a skirt seem pretty tame.Stu wrote:Now here is where you and I would probably disagree because, so far as I am concerned, he is one of my 98%. He is a perfectly ordinary heterosexual, CIS-gendered man - he just prefers to adopt aspects of his appearance which are conventionally feminine in our culture.
And I like your example of two individuals with non-traditional gender presentations getting together as a couple. This is happening a lot more now. Not that it's hard to be "a lot more" since it's going from a base of zero.
I see and agree with your point. But I do believe that it empowers boys "like us" who want to wear skirts because they believe that they should be able to do so. And at the very least these kids will grow up seeing more males wearing skirts. I wish that the concept that they provided was more "Skirts aren't just for girls any more" rather than "If you are transgender you can wear a skirt."Stu wrote:I am struggling to see any feminine characteristics in myself. However, I want to see skirts completely de-gendered so that they are as conventional for males as they are for females. When a school specifies that boys can wear skirts expressly because they want to facilitate trans boys expressing their feminine side, this implicates that skirts = feminine, so boys who do not want to be perceived as trans, or feminine, should avoid them. It is not challenging the existing taboo - it is reinforcing it.
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms
JohnH = masculine, penis, breasts [DD cup], long hair, hairless skin, extremely deep voice [basso profundo - routinely sing down to Bb1 (58 Hz) ], aggressive, feral, competetive, skirt preferred.pelmut wrote:
MALE = masculine, penis, baldness, beard, body hair, deep voice, aggressive, feral, competetive, trousers.
FEMALE = feminine, vagina, breasts, long hair, hairless skin, high voice, submissive, domesticated, co-operative, skirt.
So I don't fit into the binary pattern.
Last edited by JohnH on Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms
I love your rating scale.JohnH wrote:JohnH = masculine, penis, breasts, long hair, hairless skin, extremely deep voice [basso profundo], aggressive, feral, competetive, skirt.pelmut wrote:
MALE = masculine, penis, baldness, beard, body hair, deep voice, aggressive, feral, competetive, trousers.
FEMALE = feminine, vagina, breasts, long hair, hairless skin, high voice, submissive, domesticated, co-operative, skirt.
So I don't fit into the binary pattern.
Let's see how I rate. Somewhere-in-the middle on masculine/feminine, penis, breasts, thinning hair but long, beard, almost no body hair, medium deep voice, slightly-competitive, both skirt and trousers (but not at the same time).
I fit very few patterns, and I just found another one I don't fit.
Re: Gender neutral uniforms
I like this!Orange Apple wrote:I love your rating scale.JohnH wrote:JohnH = masculine, penis, breasts, long hair, hairless skin, extremely deep voice [basso profundo], aggressive, feral, competetive, skirt.pelmut wrote:
MALE = masculine, penis, baldness, beard, body hair, deep voice, aggressive, feral, competetive, trousers.
FEMALE = feminine, vagina, breasts, long hair, hairless skin, high voice, submissive, domesticated, co-operative, skirt.
So I don't fit into the binary pattern.
Let's see how I rate. Somewhere-in-the middle on masculine/feminine, penis, breasts, thinning hair but long, beard, almost no body hair, medium deep voice, slightly-competitive, both skirt and trousers (but not at the same time).
I fit very few patterns, and I just found another one I don't fit.
Here's how I measure up:
Stevie D = about 70% feminine/30% masculine; penis; small breasts; shoulder-length hair cut in a feminine bob style, coloured mahogany red; facial hair shaved meticulously; quite a lot of body hair but mostly kept shaved/epilated; medium deep voice; slightly competitive sometimes; just about all my clothes are women's, both outer and underwear.
If I fit into any system it would be non-binary/androgynous.
Last edited by Stevie D on Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Stevie D
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms
JohnH wrote:pelmut wrote:
MALE = masculine, penis, baldness, beard, body hair, deep voice, aggressive, feral, competetive, trousers.
FEMALE = feminine, vagina, breasts, long hair, hairless skin, high voice, submissive, domesticated, co-operative, skirt.
JohnH = masculine, penis, breasts [DD cup], long hair, hairless skin, extremely deep voice [basso profundo], aggressive, feral, competetive, skirt.
So I don't fit into the binary pattern.
So lets see where I fit in!
Fred = old (73), masculine, penis, small breasts, very short hair that is getting thinner, hairy skin, deep voice, aggressive, competitive, skirt.
Fred
"It is better to be hated for what you are than be loved for what you are not" Andre Gide: 1869 - 1951
Always be yourself because the people that matter don’t mind and the ones that mind don’t matter.
Always be yourself because the people that matter don’t mind and the ones that mind don’t matter.
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Re: Gender neutral uniforms
Some of the press reports have dragged trangender into it, but I don't recall ever seeing that this was the reason they did it. I thought they just removed some unnecessary gender stereotyping from the school rules by allowing all pupils to choose either skirts or trousers.Stu wrote:When a school specifies that boys can wear skirts expressly because they want to facilitate trans boys expressing their feminine side, ...
Last edited by pelmut on Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
Re: Gender neutral uniforms
Yesterday I had an interview for an administration role in a department of the NHS dealing with complaints. I studied beforehand the document dealing with the procedures and noticed in there the following:
"The Trust is committed to the fair treatment of everyone, regardless of age, colour, disability, ethnicity, gender, gender reassignment, nationality, race, religion or belief, responsibility for dependants, sexual orientation, trade union membership or non membership, working patterns or any other personal characteristic."
Fair enough, but later in the document is Appendix A which is the Equality Impact Assessment Tool and the following entries appears
"Sex – the policy is inclusive.
Gender Reassignment – the policy is inclusive.
Sexual Orientation – the policy is inclusive."
I pointed out in the interview that because of personal experience the EIAT doesn't go far enough and needed expansion. The assumption is that any issue with gender is due to reassignment yet there are men out there that may just want to wear a particular item of clothing or clothes designated to the opposite gender but don't want to be classed as cross-dressers or as female. They certainly are happy to be seen as male in all other respects and thus come out towards the centre of the gender spectrum. A sentence or two would probably suffice. They said that the document is in the process of being reviewed and they would pass my comment along. I didn't say at this point what the personal experience was - I didn't want to put the mockers on the interview completely.
As for where I come on the criteria - 60% on the male and 50% on the female which puts me just to the male side in the spectrum and MOH very much to the female side.
"The Trust is committed to the fair treatment of everyone, regardless of age, colour, disability, ethnicity, gender, gender reassignment, nationality, race, religion or belief, responsibility for dependants, sexual orientation, trade union membership or non membership, working patterns or any other personal characteristic."
Fair enough, but later in the document is Appendix A which is the Equality Impact Assessment Tool and the following entries appears
"Sex – the policy is inclusive.
Gender Reassignment – the policy is inclusive.
Sexual Orientation – the policy is inclusive."
I pointed out in the interview that because of personal experience the EIAT doesn't go far enough and needed expansion. The assumption is that any issue with gender is due to reassignment yet there are men out there that may just want to wear a particular item of clothing or clothes designated to the opposite gender but don't want to be classed as cross-dressers or as female. They certainly are happy to be seen as male in all other respects and thus come out towards the centre of the gender spectrum. A sentence or two would probably suffice. They said that the document is in the process of being reviewed and they would pass my comment along. I didn't say at this point what the personal experience was - I didn't want to put the mockers on the interview completely.
As for where I come on the criteria - 60% on the male and 50% on the female which puts me just to the male side in the spectrum and MOH very much to the female side.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
Re: Gender neutral uniforms
The job sounds interesting and doubtless you would bring a good insight to it. Fingers crossed for you!Sinned wrote:Yesterday I had an interview for an administration role in a department of the NHS dealing with complaints. ....
That makes you a 110% person, which has got to be good!As for where I come on the criteria - 60% on the male and 50% on the female which puts me just to the male side in the spectrum....
Stevie D
(Sheffield, South Yorkshire)
(Sheffield, South Yorkshire)