Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.

Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Postby Milfmog » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:39 pm

just a thought Stu,

...but is genius a disorder? After all, it is right at the end of the bell curve? Just wondering whether a less pejorative term might have been more appropriate.

Have fun,


Ian.
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Postby Caultron » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:49 pm

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.

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Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.

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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Postby dillon » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:35 am

Ian, though I am likely disordered, my obvious ingenuity is not a symptom of the condition; it is simply my gift to you all... :bow:

(Yeah, yeah...just kidding) :roll:
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Postby Stu » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:19 pm

Ian

Genius is certainly an abnormality, and there is certainly a link between genius and conditions which are recognised as disorders such as Asberger's.

http://www.iidc.indiana.edu/pages/Geniu ... ing-Autism

I take your point, though. It is difficult to discuss this while choosing the right terms. Where is would disagree with some of the fashionable thinking is the idea that we are all on some kind of gender spectrum. The vast majority aren't: our psychological gender accords with a definitive and unambiguous biological sex.
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Postby pelmut » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:54 am

Stu wrote:...Where is would disagree with some of the fashionable thinking is the idea that we are all on some kind of gender spectrum. The vast majority aren't: our psychological gender accords with a definitive and unambiguous biological sex.

I don't think the rediscovery of the gender spectrum is fashion, I think it is enlightenment.

We have been brainwashed into believing the binary model of sex and gender since Victorian times. Why would anyone question it when people don't go around with their chromosomes or their genitals on display and gender isn't something that shows? You just believe what you are told.

If you happened to be someone who was born with non-binary chromosomes or ambiguous genitals, you would keep it to yourself - or your parents might have agreed to have your body surgically mutilated to conform with the 'norm' when you were very young. If you happened to be born with your gender out of line with your sex you would not even be aware that such a condition could exist and might spend your entire lifetime being bullied and ostracised without the slightest idea what was causing the problem. A lot of people have died so that society can continue to feel comfortable with its myths.

Before the industrial revolution, much of the population lived in contact with the land and people were well aware of intersex genitals occurring in the animals they bred. In other societies there were places for people with gender variation, which allowed them to contribute best according to their abilities. We have suppressed that knowledge during the past 200 years, but it is beginning to break through and be recognised again.

If this leads to fewer killings and fewer deaths by suicide, I would call it enlightenment.
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Postby Milfmog » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:28 am

Stu wrote:I take your point, though. It is difficult to discuss this while choosing the right terms.

Thank you, Stu,

That was exactly my point. The café has a broad spectrum of members, who may not all be able to agree on this subject. However, time and again the members here have demonstrated an ability to disagree while still remaining civil and if we all take care to use non-judgemental phrases we will do that again and, as a consequence, we will all be a little better informed of alternative points of view.

Have fun,


Ian.

PS: Sorry, this may read as though I am having a dig at you; that is not my intention. You simply provided the opportunity for me to point out that being different is not always a negative.
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Postby Stu » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:13 pm

pelmut

I don't think the rediscovery of the gender spectrum is fashion, I think it is enlightenment.


OK - I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that aspect.

Please don't think for a second that I am in any way hostile to the notion of intersexuality and intersex people. The reverse is true. I think for far too long this has been a subject that has been ignored, swept under the carpet and denied and the results have been absolutely foul. Much sterling work has been done by organisations and charities in highlighting the myths, disinformation, prejudices and injustices in this respect. I welcome 100% the improvements we have seen so far and I look forward to seeing many more in the future. As a long-standing supporter of the men in skirts cause, I also support some of the gender conventions being challenged and eventually overturned. However, I think you are making a grave mistake if you try to push the narrative of gender fluidity too far and try to make people believe that gender is anything other than a simple binary for all but an extremely tiny minority.

Here is some evidence of what I mean. Today's Daily Mail newspaper has a related story on this. When you have read it, scroll down to the Comments section and select "Best Rated". Look at those at the top - read them and see how many green arrows the commenters have. Then go to "Worst Rated" and have a look there - and compare the numbers. I don't believe the notion of gender fluidity is relevant to more than one or two percent of the population at most and for the vast majority of the remainder, it is perceived, rightly or wrongly, as an abnormality (and even a "disorder").

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3420203/Are-gender-fluid-demi-girl-intersex.html

I believe people can be educated to accept the fact that a tiny proportion of people do sit outside of the male/female binary. However, once you start inviting their children, completely unprompted, to contemplate that they may be anything other than male or female, you will experience a massive negative response that could threaten all the progress that has been made. The existing feelings towards genuine minorities for the most part range from acceptance to indifference, both of which are actually good and these should be cultivated. Try to convince the entire population that they have got gender wrong all their lives and they, and their loved ones, children included, are somewhere on a gradient between the sexes and I fear a backlash.
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Postby dillon » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:22 pm

I believe the connection/linkage between chromosomal sex, physically expressed sex, sexual orientation, and gender identity is incomplete and variable. I'm not sure if a gradient is applicable, but clearly none of the categories are necessarily strongly enough linked to be universally applied, though it is not biologically incorrect to generally imply a linkage. However, when you consider the amount of discussion and public revelation that is already occurring, and then consider the percentage of people who are likely not "out", publically, or perhaps even to themselves, with regard to disagreement between biological sex and sexual or gender orientation, then I think it's reasonable to conclude that the dissociation is far more common than science has thus far estimated. Too, the range of expression and feeling that exists among men on this website alone evidences that any linkage is clearly not on/off, yes/no binary. I just think such things are too complex to quantify or statistically analyze. But more importantly, it shouldn't matter too much, as long as the trend is toward tolerance and respect, on the parts of all involved.
Last edited by dillon on Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Postby Milfmog » Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:30 pm

Stu wrote:Here is some evidence of what I mean. Today's Daily Mail newspaper has a related story on this...

That was all going so well Stu, then you used Daily Mail readers as evidence... Oh well, I guess it does not prove you wrong, but it certainly does not prove you right :)

Have fun,


Ian.
Do not argue with idiots; they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Postby Stu » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:39 am

I know what you mean, Ian, but I think the comments section in the Daily Mail can be used as a barometer for the views of a certain, and quite substantial, demographic.

We have to bring people with us if we are to make progress.
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