The New York Times: Defining Nonbinary Work Wear

[crfriend]

It appears that we may have to go through the same fight.

Indeed we will, and it'll be an uphill fight. However, I feel it's worth fighting. Let's hope the younger generation does as well, because it may take that long to take the hill.

That is if anybody gives a damn -- and I'm not entirely convinced on that point.

[STEVIE]

I was reading a DM article by Janet Street-Porter in which she says, "Women have fought to dress as they please ....". It appears that we may have to go through the same fight.

Em, are we not engaged in that already, I thought we had quite a few veterans, including myself, here already?
Have we not also discussed how we can learn from our "sisters-in-arms"?

That is if anybody gives a damn -- and I'm not entirely convinced on that point.

Actually Carl, my ray of hope lies in kids of an age for me to be Grandpa.
When they are all grown up, nobody will give a damn about who wears what.
No crystal balls, but a sustaining thought in the darker times.
Steve

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

What fight?

The last few years I have almost never worn menswear ANYWHERE. About a year ago I bought my first pair of Carhart’s … work legging. They’re great! Ballistic nylon fabric, heavy duty construction, LOTS of functional pockets.

But I do get comments. The other day as I walked to lunch the mother of a little one told me I looked “awesome!” On the way back to the office a BEAUTIFUL young woman told me how much she admired my maxi coat. Remember them? They’re coming back.

Don’t you just hate it when people notice you and comment on how you dress that way? Not I. And no, these comments were not made in “The People’s Republic of Portland” as “The Shrub” christened us; it was in the tiny city of Ashland OR. Yes it has the Oregon Shakespearean Festival, but also a 4th of July parades complete with the Proud Boys and the Ku Klux Klan.

And no I don’t wear menswear to job interview Though I do wear a suit… A jacket and skirt combination.

As the old Nike ad said. “Just do it!”

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

Oh yes, and over the last 7 years, very few people have asked about my gender identity, including prospective employers.

[moonshadow]

What fight?

The last few years I have almost never worn menswear ANYWHERE. About a year ago I bought my first pair of Carhart’s … work legging. They’re great! Ballistic nylon fabric, heavy duty construction, LOTS of functional pockets.

There doesn't appear to be a "fight", that is unless you're a school aged trans-girl, which nobody here is.

[Coder]

What fight?

The last few years I have almost never worn menswear ANYWHERE. About a year ago I bought my first pair of Carhart’s … work legging. They’re great! Ballistic nylon fabric, heavy duty construction, LOTS of functional pockets.

There doesn't appear to be a "fight", that is unless you're a school aged trans-girl, which nobody here is.

I have't yet had to fight my way out of work, but internally it is a fight against our internal fears. But, the good news is fear can be overcome, even if it takes a few years.

[moonshadow]

What fight?

The last few years I have almost never worn menswear ANYWHERE. About a year ago I bought my first pair of Carhart’s … work legging. They’re great! Ballistic nylon fabric, heavy duty construction, LOTS of functional pockets.

There doesn't appear to be a "fight", that is unless you're a school aged trans-girl, which nobody here is.

I have't yet had to fight my way out of work, but internally it is a fight against our internal fears. But, the good news is fear can be overcome, even if it takes a few years.

Yeah pretty much.

It seems that a long as just mind our own business, and don't get caught reading books to children, I think pretty much everyone will leave us alone.

I can live with that... I don't even like children anyway.

[STEVIE]

Sorry guys but America does not constitute the whole of this planet.
Admittedly, I have never had serious resistance from my employer either.
However, I have it on good authority that my stance is unique in an organisation which employs around 50,000 men.
How many of them would like to wear a skirt at work but simply feel they dare not.
The "fight" need not involve direct conflict, it is way more subtle than that.
Until every one of us is absolutely free to choose, absolutely freely, fight it is.
Steve.

[moonshadow]

Sorry guys but America does not constitute the whole of this planet.
Admittedly, I have never had serious resistance from my employer either.
However, I have it on good authority that my stance is unique in an organisation which employs around 50,000 men.
How many of them would like to wear a skirt at work but simply feel they dare not.
The "fight" need not involve direct conflict, it is way more subtle than that.
Until every one of us is absolutely free to choose, absolutely freely, fight it is.
Steve.

I don't quite understand what you're saying here...

Are men in your area forbidden to wear skirts?

Occasionally, when I dare poke my head out of my 'murican bubble, I see reports of other groups in other nations centered on western Democracy generally allowing men to wear skirts.

It seems the politics that surround these issues is when it pertains to transgender women.

When I hear traditional and/or conservative pundits/politicians discuss the issue, they are generally in agreement that men can wear skirts, provided you abide a few simple rules:

A) Don't do it, or at least don't do it while you're the main attraction at children's events.

B) Don't for one second think that makes you a "woman". So stay out of female sacred spaces and you should be fine.

Why do so many here seem to obsess about putting every man in a skirt? We have the freedom to wear them now, that's all that matters. If 99% of men don't want to wear a skirt.... so what? Leave 'em alone! Nobody likes being pestured to do something they really don't want to do.

[moonshadow]

Now of you're talking about every little corner of the planet being free... of course not!

Yes there are still many countries on the planet where men are forbidden to wear skirts, but honestly, when it comes to individual liberty in those countries, there are much bigger fish to fry at the moment.

[ScotL]

Why do so many here seem to obsess about putting every man in a skirt? We have the freedom to wear them now, that's all that matters. If 99% of men don't want to wear a skirt.... so what? Leave 'em alone! Nobody likes being pestured to do something they really don't want to do.

Yes there are still many countries on the planet where men are forbidden to wear skirts, but honestly, when it comes to individual liberty in those countries, there are much bigger fish to fry at the moment.

Moon, these two comments are very important. Us fighting to wear skirts and not be judged does not hinge on making all men or women wear skirts. But does hinge on letting people wear whatever they please.

And yes, given recent headlines coming out, there are much bigger fish to fry. Seems trivial if someone harshes on a clothing choice when there’s war and brutality going on in spades.

Note: these are just my comments that reflect my opinion and in no way should be considered an attack or biting commentary on any poster otherwise associated with Moon’s post.

[STEVIE]

Until every one of us is absolutely free to choose, absolutely freely, fight it is.

The key is "freedom to choose freely"!
How in hell's name does that indicate enforced anything, even skirts for men?
If as was said, 99% of men simply don't want to wear skirts then the fashion industry can save some bucks by offering men drab ad nauseum as anything beyond will be pointless.
I guess the "kilt" dilemma is settled too, as a skirt, it will be consigned to annals of scam history.
Sadly, there is a problem, I don't believe that the vast majority of men do not wish to try wearing skirts.
What I do believe is that the vast majority of males, men and boys have been brainwashed into thinking that they are not FREE to choose to wear what they WISH.
Following the law, rules and simple good sense is surely a given but "FORBIDDEN" comes in stealth mode too.
Yeah sure, man wear a pink tutu, spangly tights and a ribbon in your hair, nothing to lose, except friends, family and livelihood that is.
Alternatively, let your son wear a girl school uniform and watch him get tortured by the schoolyard gestapo.
Freedom, really not how I see it anyway.
I hope that clarifies any misunderstanding for everyone.
Steve.

[Coder]

What I do believe is that the vast majority of males, men and boys have been brainwashed into thinking that they are not FREE to choose to wear what they WISH.

This is how I see most of the members opinions on the matter here as well. While there is a definite push for MIS, it's more along the lines of fashion freedom and letting men know they have a choice, rather than forced skirt wearing.

[crfriend]

What I do believe is that the vast majority of males, men and boys have been brainwashed into thinking that they are not FREE to choose to wear what they WISH.

This is how I see most of the members opinions on the matter here as well. While there is a definite push for MIS, it's more along the lines of fashion freedom and letting men know they have a choice, rather than forced skirt wearing.

I deeply suspect that's the way the vast majority of us here feel. We want the option to make a decision -- or even just experiment -- without judgment, ridicule, or bullying. In fact, I think there's only one guy here who would force the issue because that's his particular little bent.

We're adults. We can make up our own minds.

[Barleymower]

What I do believe is that the vast majority of males, men and boys have been brainwashed into thinking that they are not FREE to choose to wear what they WISH.

This is how I see most of the members opinions on the matter here as well. While there is a definite push for MIS, it's more along the lines of fashion freedom and letting men know they have a choice, rather than forced skirt wearing.

I deeply suspect that's the way the vast majority of us here feel. We want the option to make a decision -- or even just experiment -- without judgment, ridicule, or bullying. In fact, I think there's only one guy here who would force the issue because that's his particular little bent.

We're adults. We can make up our own minds.

I agree absolutely, 100%. It takes nerve to break our conditioning and to go out there in our favourite clothes. Stevie/Carl/Coder you are way out in front.