No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
Faldaguy
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Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform

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by moonshadow » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:45 pm

So I am a "gender feminine male". Which is actually a bullet [bigot] proof description for any transgender woman should she choose to apply it to herself.

Sometimes I think the only actual measurable difference between me and a trans-woman is, I simply don't call myself one [a woman]
Moon, and the rest of you in agreement with the above statements, I have to disagree strongly -- not because I give a hoot about how anyone chooses to dress and present -- but because there are very real measurable physical and mental differences -- even if you dismiss them as cosmetic surgery, though they are indeed more than that.

I defy you to spend time in a clinic for Facial feminization surgery (FFS) and the tell me there is no measurable differences after you've seen a face pulled back, a forehead separated, pulled loose, reshaped and put back. To undergo sex reassignment surgery by having your genitals removed; and following a vaginoplasty, having to spend 20-30 minutes three times a day using a vaginal dilator. Many undergo far more -- ribs removed; hips padded, vocal cords tightened, Adams apple shaved, & of course breast implants -- though many do none of these things but do enter a lifetime of hormone replacement therapy (HRT). And that changes you too.

I would contend these are indeed measurable differences, but even if you want to dismiss them that way--despite the obvious physical changes of SRS, the transition physically to another gender is more than being a "gender feminine male" -- in fact, I'd venture calling a transwoman a "feminine male" or a transman a "masculine female" is as close to rank transphobic and insensitive as you could be.
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Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform

Post by moonshadow »

That wasn't nice faldaguy.

You took what I said the wrong way, proceeded to basically call me out for being some kind of trans imposter, that I can't possibly understand what it's like to have the mind of a trans-person. You seem to know what rolls around in my own head better than I do...

Tell me, you want to step in my shoes and live my life for me? Give it your best shot. Be forewarned though, it's not as easy as it looks.
Faldaguy wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:04 am I defy you to spend time in a clinic for Facial feminization surgery (FFS) and the tell me there is no measurable differences after you've seen a face pulled back, a forehead separated, pulled loose, reshaped and put back. To undergo sex reassignment surgery by having your genitals removed; and following a vaginoplasty, having to spend 20-30 minutes three times a day using a vaginal dilator. Many undergo far more -- ribs removed; hips padded, vocal cords tightened, Adams apple shaved, & of course breast implants -- though many do none of these things but do enter a lifetime of hormone replacement therapy (HRT). And that changes you too.
Oh I see, so to qualify for transness, one would have to have a stable income, a proper, progressive insurance policy that would pay for all these changes, have to have the blessing of several medical and psychological practitioners, plenty of money, a very determined mindset, thousands and thousands of dollars worth of unpleasant medical procedures... gotcha.

A trans-woman who doesn't want to deal with any of that, or simply doesn't have the means to pay for it all can't possibly be a real trans-woman, I see.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Think I'm going to take a little break for a while. I've got enough going on right now, I don't need strangers online telling me the contents of my soul.

Good day gentleman.
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Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform

Post by jamie001 »

Gender identity of a feminine male exists in the mind (the brain is feminine) and is not necessarily always expressed via surgery and other physical feature modifications. Gender identity can also be determined using psychological testing. I have been through years of psychotherapy and even though my sex is male, my brain is female. The purpose of the psychological counseling was to help me cope with my non-cis gender identity and society's incorrect belief that biological sex and gender identity are the same thing. It is possible to have a feminine male that has the body of a lumberjack and a ZZ Top Beard.They exist and I have met some of them.
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Neurology

Post by Grok »

Not any sort of expert myself, but basing this post on articles I have read....

Biologists have investigated such how neurology is related to such matters as gender identity, sexual orientation, etc. They have determined that, with humans, different parts of the brain affect these. One part of the brain affects sexual orientation. Another, distinct, part of the brain affects gender identity. Other part can affect external behaviors that tend to be associated with a particular gender-for example, rough and tumble behavior in boys.

I even came across a reference to a romantic orientation.

The Gender Binary is a thing because for most people, this applies to them. A plurality, if not a majority, of people with male bodies end up with a male gender identity, a sexual orientation towards women, etc. A plurality, if not a majority, of people with female bodies end up with a female gender identity, a sexual orientation towards men, etc. In these people, these different aspects are coordinated in a manner such as one would expect, and as these men and women dominate society, it is expected that everybody should conform to the Gender Binary.
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Re: Neurology

Post by pelmut »

Grok wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:37 pm ...The Gender Binary is a thing because for most people, this applies to them.
That's the key point.  The question is how to educate them to realise that just because it applies to them (and most people they know) it doesn't have to be enforced on people to whom it doesn't apply.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform

Post by Grok »

I understand that hormones affect the development of these different brain centers during pregnancy. Development of fetal brain tissue usually unfolds in a way that conforms to the Gender Binary. But sometimes not. Something happens with the hormones, which in turn affects the neurology of the developing brain.

Probably the most obvious difference is sexual orientation. Gender identity may also be affected, as well as ones general behavior.

(A few years back, I posted a link to an article about tomboys. The article concluded that tomboys are born, not made; that fetal development of brain tissue inclined these girls towards the rough and tumble behavior associated with boys. I suspect that a sort of mirror image process can appear, turning a male into a janegirl).
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Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform

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jamie001 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:40 pmIt is possible to have a feminine male that has the body of a lumberjack and a ZZ Top Beard.
And that'll be the one that cries at weddings. Good on him!

Face it, humans are complex evolved creatures and -- as far as our conceited little brains know -- the only species that is self-aware. And then only some of the species, I might sarcastically add.

One of the problems is that sex and gender are only linked tangentially, and a decent amount of that is local culture. A distinctive question to test for masculine and feminine gender is, "What sex/gender do you prefer your intimate partner to be?" That'll boil a lot of stuff down very quickly. My "target audience" is feminine women who are also "alphas" (e.g. extremely intelligent, self-reliant, and self-possessed); it's a highly rare combination, but I was lucky to get twenty pretty good years with one. This is one of the reasons I'm alone now; they may not exist any longer.

Another problem is that femininity is looked down upon for some unknown reason -- and even women don't like being feminine now; both genders have migrated to the masculine extreme which is machismo not masculine. The shift has been taking place for decades -- too long for many minds to notice it; only those with deep memories can perceive the differences that this shift has caused. However, there's no point in wishing that the clock could be wound back, because it can't be; those times are long gone and we need to figure out what the Hell to do now.

What we can do, is respect femininity for what it is, and enjoy the softer more graceful sorts of things in life. Celebrate what little is left of it, and look to the future, even i that is pretty bleak at the moment. Seek out beauty and cherish it in all things. Commit random acts of it, even. Others really do appreciate it, even if they don't quite understand. Eschew the macho -- from either sex. Call it out for what it is: a toxic parody of what it is to be a man (whether acted out by a male or a female).
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Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform

Post by Grok »

Good point, Pelmut!
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Re: Skirtcafe membership

Post by Grok »

Sorry if I seem to have gone off on a tangent. However, I believe the diversity that we have been discussing is relevant to what kind of people are members, and how they interact with each other.

What the different members have in common is an interest in putting their legs down one pipe. Members include, for example, self described feminine men, but also Cis-/Hetero- men who are simply interested in wearing skirts.

Hopefully, another thing we may have in common is a live-and-let-live attitudes towards other members.
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Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform

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by moonshadow » Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:42 am

That wasn't nice faldaguy.

You took what I said the wrong way, proceeded to basically call me out for being some kind of trans imposter, that I can't possibly understand what it's like to have the mind of a trans-person. You seem to know what rolls around in my own head better than I do...


I defy you to spend time in a clinic for Facial feminization surgery (FFS) and the tell me there is no measurable differences after you've seen a face pulled back, a forehead separated, pulled loose, reshaped and put back. To undergo sex reassignment surgery by having your genitals removed; and following a vaginoplasty, having to spend 20-30 minutes three times a day using a vaginal dilator. Many undergo far more -- ribs removed; hips padded, vocal cords tightened, Adams apple shaved, & of course breast implants -- though many do none of these things but do enter a lifetime of hormone replacement therapy (HRT). And that changes you too.

Oh I see, so to qualify for transness, one would have to have a stable income, a proper, progressive insurance policy that would pay for all these changes, have to have the blessing of several medical and psychological practitioners, plenty of money, a very determined mindset, thousands and thousands of dollars worth of unpleasant medical procedures... gotcha.

A trans-woman who doesn't want to deal with any of that, or simply doesn't have the means to pay for it all can't possibly be a real trans-woman, I see.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Think I'm going to take a little break for a while. I've got enough going on right now, I don't need strangers online telling me the contents of my soul.

Good day gentleman.
Moon, I'm sorry I've upset you, but I think it is you who has taken what I said the wrong way. I have made no pretension about knowing what goes on in your head and virtually nothing about a "trans imposter" (whatever that may be).

Nor do I understand the leap from my expressing concern, amazement and admiration for the courage many trans people endure in psychological and surgical procedures to a rant about the cost thereof which has no bearing at all upon being trans -- which has been pointed out many times in this forum as most likely the result of brain development in utero.

What I did say (and I concede an all-inclusive error here) was: "calling a transwoman a 'feminine MALE' or a transman a 'masculine FEMALE' is insensitive because many (not ALL --my error) do not feel they are MALE or FEMALE any longer -- if they ever did. As you have pointed out many times here, you are what you are and you do not care about what you are labeled -- and you have acknowledged you are a male that feels feminine --, thus for you your definition of being a 'gender feminine male' apparently fits your feelings and definition of being trans -- fine; BUT my (admittedly limited*) experience in and amongst people who acknowledge being trans is that they do not wish to be called male or female based on the genitalia they were born with--they truly feel, & identify as the gender they have 'become' be it by declaration, surgery, or any of a multitude of factors.

I'm sorry my implied absolute did not make the distinction I've attempted to clarify above, and thus I may have stepped on some toes. I still stand by the caution that we cannot and should not declare all transpersons simply "gender feminine males", or "gender masculine females". as it seemed you proclaimed by saying a gender feminine male was actually a "bullet [bigot] proof definition of any transgender woman".

* as to my limited experience noted above: I have spent two one month long sojourns at two clinics; one for FFS [Argentina] and the other for SRS [Thailand]-- living amongst people using those services, getting to know some of them quite well. Otherwise my experience is probably about the same as most people 'on the street'; though my participation in an spiritual group that is "inclusive" at local, national and international levels has probably given me more opportunities to mingle with the gamut of the GLBTQ community, than one typically meets on the street.
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Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform

Post by Bodycon »

This thread seems to have gone the way of many others and turned into a debate on the spectrum of gender and how that is expressed and reacted to.

This forum is (according to the banner) here to represent men in skirts, so from that I take "us" to simply be men in skirts. The problem arises when everyone and their dog wants a pigeon hole for themselves, unhappy with a collective, and that of course fractures and weakens the group message (assuming anyone is listening anyway).

I do not consider myself to be anything other than a CIS Male Heterosexual, who happens to wear a skirt now and then. Not gender non-conforming, feminine male, guys who only wear purple miniskirts, or any other subgroup, just a guy in a skirt. Put simply if the "us" doesn't apply to you then perhaps you are in the wrong forum? (Yes, I know that is pretty harsh (indented to be thought provoking rather than rude) and I don't expect or want an exodus, however constantly going over the same thing is not gong to help anyone). If the "us" does apply then disagree with the conjecture based on the collective rather than individual niches.

As for the original subject. A legal duty is what sets a precedent for authorities to follow; just look at the abortion debate in the USA. Skirts for all or skirts for none is the simple answer.
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Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform

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Bodycon wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:00 amThis forum is (according to the banner) here to represent men in skirts, so from that I take "us" to simply be men in skirts. The problem arises when everyone and their dog wants a pigeon hole for themselves, unhappy with a collective, and that of course fractures and weakens the group message (assuming anyone is listening anyway).
Hear, hear!

Another problem is that we're discussing a term that has no concrete definition and thus means different things to different people. It's like trying to nail Jell-o to a wall. It's that amorphous. Also in play is the fallout from the radical feminist idea of "toxic masculinity" which applies to all men, and men -- instead of standing up to the rubbish and telling that group what it can do with itself -- are trying to get out from under than mantle by other means.

The answer is not to hand radical feminism a victory, but rather to take back the ground we've lost to the redefinition of "masculine" to "macho" so we can be ourselves again, whole and complete, without having to declare we're something we aren't so we can have some of our former selves back. Call "toxic masculinity" out for what it is: Hate Speech. Call it out publicly and loudly. Be a man and stand up for yourself. Because nobody else is going to.
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Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform

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As I see it the "man" may feel inside that they identify as female BUT while they still have a penis the majority women do not want them using their single sex facilities as the "man" still outwardly appears male. This is where the contention lies and I can't blame them. In intimate situations they don't want to see a penis and don't want an outwardly appearing male seeing them in states of undress. Somehow no amount of explanation could change that.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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Re: No legal duty to let trans pupils switch uniform

Post by rode_kater »

Sinned wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:54 pm As I see it the "man" may feel inside that they identify as female BUT while they still have a penis the majority women do not want them using their single sex facilities as the "man" still outwardly appears male. This is where the contention lies and I can't blame them. In intimate situations they don't want to see a penis and don't want an outwardly appearing male seeing them in states of undress. Somehow no amount of explanation could change that.
I don't get this. In public toilets you don't see other people's genitals, ever. That's what the cubicle was invented for and whether the cubicle has a male, female or unisex sign on it changes nothing about how it's used. Mothers take their young sons (and dads their young daughters) with them into public toilets with them all the time, where's the outrage?

In clothing stores you also don't see other people in states of undress. Unless you have x-ray vision there's no way you could possibly know what genitals the people around you have, so how can it possibly matter?

I also wouldn't describe public toilets as intimate, they are a functional space for relieving yourself. You don't meet or even talk to people there. It's not a social space.

There are communal changing rooms at the swimming pool here and there's a trans-man who swims there regularly and sometimes uses the male changing room. Other people are mostly curious about the process, so it leads to some discussion but people turn around while changing and you don't see any genitals. It's also considered polite not to look.

This is completely bypassing the suggestion that seeing a penis somehow makes people uncomfortable. 50% of the population has one, get over it. These people should also avoid going to the beach where you're likely to see all kinds of people in various states of undress. And sometimes even completely naked children (gasp!). Sometimes people are even discretely having sex on the beach (double gasp!). Yes, I know continental Europe is much less uptight about casual nudity than the US, so I'll shut up now.

(PSA you can change the subject when posting a reply, no need to let the typo continue to live.)
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Re: No legal duty to let trans pupils switch uniform

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rode_kater wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:40 pm
Sinned wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:54 pm As I see it the "man" may feel inside that they identify as female BUT while they still have a penis the majority women do not want them using their single sex facilities as the "man" still outwardly appears male. This is where the contention lies and I can't blame them. In intimate situations they don't want to see a penis and don't want an outwardly appearing male seeing them in states of undress. Somehow no amount of explanation could change that.
I don't get this. In public toilets you don't see other people's genitals, ever. That's what the cubicle was invented for and whether the cubicle has a male, female or unisex sign on it changes nothing about how it's used. Mothers take their young sons (and dads their young daughters) with them into public toilets with them all the time, where's the outrage?
I think the concern is rape, flat and simple. If a female is by herself and a man enters the bathroom it's an easy scenario for something like that to happen in people's imaginations - what the actual % is I don't know it's probably very very low - but we aren't talking about rational thought - it's emotional. Frankly, I understand the concern. IMHO - it seems like awfully a LOT of work to CD or be trans just to use a bathroom to then assault women - I'd imagine if a guy is going to rape he's just going to present as a guy.
rode_kater wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:40 pm In clothing stores you also don't see other people in states of undress. Unless you have x-ray vision there's no way you could possibly know what genitals the people around you have, so how can it possibly matter?
This topic has come up before here, and it kind of depends on the clothing store. Some stores have a changing area that is communal with curtained booths. It seems like women will sometimes model for one another in this space (possibly partially dressed) and these spaces are up for debate. My personal feeling is let the store owners/managers set a policy and let shoppers decide where to spend their money.
rode_kater wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:40 pm I also wouldn't describe public toilets as intimate, they are a functional space for relieving yourself. You don't meet or even talk to people there. It's not a social space.

There are communal changing rooms at the swimming pool here and there's a trans-man who swims there regularly and sometimes uses the male changing room. Other people are mostly curious about the process, so it leads to some discussion but people turn around while changing and you don't see any genitals. It's also considered polite not to look.

This is completely bypassing the suggestion that seeing a penis somehow makes people uncomfortable. 50% of the population has one, get over it.
But see, that's your opinion. Maybe women don't want their daughters to see one in a communal swimming changing area. Maybe some of them are survivors of domestic violence or rape. Are they supposed to just "ignore" the problem or not benefit from the local YMCA? What about someone I know who was abused when she was little by a neighbor - is she supposed to be OK with seeing that unprovoked? EVERY F'ing time I'm with her I can see echoes of that abuse, and it's heart-wrenching. And men are told constantly about the "male gaze" - if someone is physically still male, even when on HRT - what does them looking across the room signify? Or are they supposed to keep their eyes down? If they don't fully transition - ffs, hrt, etc... it's a big ask of others for them to see him as a her.

The main problems I see with communal dressing spaces: it is very easy to invade one's privacy, you can walk into a space and accidentally see something you don't want to see, someone can force themselves on you and even if you cry out the emotional damage may already be done.
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