Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

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Kirbstone
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by Kirbstone »

Speaking of 'Abortion Tourism', Historically hordes of compromised young maidens took the boat out of this priest/hierarchy-ridden State to Britain, where abortions on demand were available.

More recently here the hierarchy have been kicked into touch by common vote and abortions are available.

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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by Uncle Al »

Interesting tangents from the original post.
My question is :arrow: What happened to the Teenager :?:

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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by Sinned »

It looks as if some devious lawyers were working overtime in the drafting of the bill. It will take some even more devious lawyers to get around it. Maybe the answer from the "United States" perspective [0] would be to encourage and let Texas go. Independent, they can do what they want. Texas seems to be a loose cannon in some other areas as well. A bit of a loss in territory but it might make things a little less complicated. Of course you will all tell me of the problems with this. Fascinating insight into American politics.

[0] From the national perspective but not from the female populace perspective. It would be tough on them. It has taken decades for Ireland to come to terms with abortion legalities.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by moonshadow »

Uncle Al wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:07 am
Interesting tangents from the original post.
My question is :arrow: What happened to the Teenager :?:

Uncle Al
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I don't know but boy howdy... Abortion has got to be the hottest of hot button topics, and certainly has nothing to do with Tennessee guys getting bothered for wearing a ball gown.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by Dust »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:59 am
Unfortunately, the US Supreme Court ruled, without hearing any arguments on either side, to let the new Texas law stand until the challenges wend their weary way to the Supreme Court.
That's the normal way of things, wait for a case. That's all they are supposed to do, not serve as a super veto body for all less in the country, or worse a super legislature.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:59 am
Normally, that would be what one would except that this law was written so cleverly (diabolically) that mounting a legal challenge is nearly impossible. Typically the way one challenges a law in the US system is to file an injunction against whoever is responsible for enforcing the law to not enforce it. The new Texas law does not assign any government official with the responsibility of enforcing it nor any criminal penalty for breaking the law. However, anyone can sue any other person or entity who performs, assists in or abets an abortion after the 6th week of pregnancy in civil court and if they prevail they need to awarded at least $10,000.
I thought the approach of allowing civil suits was odd. Not sure how that will work out..
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:59 am
The language on aiding, abetting and performing an abortion is so vague it could include the person who drove the pregnant woman to and from the clinic where the woman got her abortion. Who knows? Maybe even the person who suggested she get an abortion. As far as I know, there's no limitation on the number of people who may sue a given individual who participated in a given abortion.
Were they too chicken to make the woman liable for her own actions? That's unfortunate, if true. We don't hold women culpable for their actions the way we do men, and that's a bigger problem.

But allowing the suit to go against anyone involved actually makes sense. All too often, women or girls are pressured or forced into abortions they don't want by anyone from their parents to their pimp. (Abortions are utilized heavily in sex trafficking.) They're the ones who should pay in such cases.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:59 am
Why 6 weeks? Because that's the point where a so-called fetal heartbeat can be detected (It's not really a heartbeat because the heart isn't a functioning organ at that point, but "alternative facts" are the stock in trade of the extreme right). Unfortunately for women, few of them even know they are pregnant at 6 weeks.
I don't believe it's called a heartbeat in the bill, but rather "cardiac activity" or some such. Maybe that was just the language of the media. But the detectible "thump thump thump" of the developing heart is commonly called "your baby's heartbeat" by any doctor that isn't trying to convince you to kill your offspring.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:59 am
Reprehensively, there is no exception allowed for rape or incest.
This is the 21st century. We shouldn't be punishing children for the crimes of their parents. Why give the death penalty to the child of criminal?
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

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As I have said in another thread a Doctor who performed an abortion after the bill was passed is being sued by an ex-lawyer who was disbarred after being convicted of tax fraud as a test case. The defense is said to be that the Texas law is unconstitutional. Also the Justice Department is suing Texas arguing that the State's legislature enacted it in open defiance of the constitution. As I said it's the women caught up in all this that will suffer from what is perceived as the actions of mainly male legislators who have no vested interest in the law.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by crfriend »

Dust wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:52 am
This is the 21st century. We shouldn't be punishing children for the crimes of their parents. Why give the death penalty to the child of criminal?
Should we be punishing the prospective parents via capital punishment, then? What does that do to the "unborn child"? Or do you wait until the baby is born and then kill the parents?

What of the cases where there is strong medical indication that the fetus is not viable and will never be able to live a normal life? Is the humane thing to do in that case to sentence the child to a life of agony and misery?
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by rode_kater »

Dust wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:52 am
Why give the death penalty to the child of criminal?
There's no death penalty here. Let's not pretend we consider all life equally valuable.

Stepping on an ant is not a crime.

Killing a cat is not a crime in most places, if you kill your neighbour's pet you're charged with damaging your neighbours property. Not because we actually care about the life of the pet.

We kill animals for food.

Even people, if a bomb is dropped on a village somewhere we call that "collateral damage". In wars lots of people are killed but we don't call that murder. “a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic”. People crossing the sea in a leaky boat that drown are not important enough to save. People starving elsewhere in the world are not important.

The argument that abortion is bad because it kills something that's alive is bullsh*t. We have no problem making categories of living things that we have no problem killing. You can disagree about where the line is, but you can't deny there is a line.

For me a foetus before 24 weeks is in the category: unfortunate, but no problem. Mother's choice.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by Dust »

If a pregnant woman is killed, it's treated as a double homicide.

A cat is not human. Cows are not human. An unborn child, foetus, zygote, etc. is a human being. An extremely young, extremely vulnerable, and completely innocent human being. This is not conjecture, religious belief, or speculation. It is a scientific fact. It is a separate living human, with his or her own DNA, that happens to be dependent (for the time being) on the mother. Nothing suddenly changes at 24 weeks, or birth for that matter. The child is not self-sufficient for a long time after birth, and has been a unique human being since conception.

I don't advocate killing either parent for rape or incest, but that would at least be more logical than killing an innocent helpless human being.

And who are we to decide what life is worth living. I've met folks with Downs Syndrome, and they are some of the happiest I know. Kids born without feet have gone on to be track stars. One without arms learned to play guitar with his feet. I could go on.

War is hell. Don't want to see any more of it. Innocents die, and every one of them is tragic. Large numbers get glossed over because we can't ever learn all their stories, or even their names, and if we did, it might drive us all into depression or rage. We cannot handle truly comprehending the enormity of a million deaths, so our minds block it out to preserve ourselves.

We have a greater duty to those closest to us. While tragedy strikes all over the world every day, there is only so much we can do. And while we should help those we can, we must first provide for those closest to us that we have a duty to. Our children. Our spouses. Our parents. Our selves. Then our neighbors, friends, and extended families. Our community and then our own country.

Only once we take care of our own primary and secondary responsibilities can we start dedicating our time and efforts to more distant responsibilities like starving kids in Africa. You don't get married and take on that added responsibility when you are homeless living on the street.

And if you get pregnant and can't care for the child, there are couples ready to take that child in, waiting in line for the chance to adopt. There are charities dedicated to helping you, whether you wish to keep and raise the child yourself or find them another loving home.

We, the modern western world, are bankrupt. Economically, morally, culturally. Only once we fix our own issues can we seriously try to save the world.

Curtailing the deaths of millions of the most innocent and helpless among us, is a good early step in that. Maybe it's the first, or second, or tenth, but quibbling over order gets nothing done. It's a serious problem, and one that is very close to home. But acknowledging it is one of those things that our minds don't want to process.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by moonshadow »

Well the matter was settled in the 1970s, but as I've indicated in another thread, it will likely never be settled due to the emotions and philosophy involved.

It remains the perfect political issue to gridlock a legislative body for eternity, in essence sealing the fate of other matters in the U.S., such as healthcare.

I challenge a conservative, prolife Republican this quandary:

How can you claim to be "prolife" when in all other matters you place a price tag on human health and allow those who can not pay the price to potentially (and likely- eventually) die?

Let's break it down simply:

Conservative, pro-life members of skirt cafe, YES OR NO:

Do you believe life saving medical treatment should depend solely on the patient's ability to pay?

The two notions are in conflict. As far as I'm concerned the GOP can't talk to me about the sanctity of life. They currently have two blazing back eyes right now with their positions on healthcare and covid.

You can't see with two black eyes...

I also rather enjoy this essay by Carl Sagan regarding the abortion issue:

https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/society/o ... nn-druyan/
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by rode_kater »

Dust wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:15 am
If a pregnant woman is killed, it's treated as a double homicide.
In America, yes. Other places, no. It varies.
Dust wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:15 am
A cat is not human. Cows are not human. An unborn child, foetus, zygote, etc. is a human being. An extremely young, extremely vulnerable, and completely innocent human being. This is not conjecture, religious belief, or speculation. It is a scientific fact. It is a separate living human, with his or her own DNA, that happens to be dependent (for the time being) on the mother. Nothing suddenly changes at 24 weeks, or birth for that matter. The child is not self-sufficient for a long time after birth, and has been a unique human being since conception.
All true. And yet, I don't believe that human beings are deserving of special privileges. I don't believe that human lives are intrinsically more valuable than animals. That it would be acceptable to wipe out all other life on earth to save one human.

Incidentally, the use of the word "innocent" is a religious belief IMO.

We are all part of a big web of life and living and dying is all part of the process. As a society we get to decide what we consider as acceptable and not. And we have decided that 24 weeks is a good compromise between the viability of the foetus and that the bearer of the foetus having a reasonable chance to come to a considered decision.

I guess this would come over as fairly areligous and that'd be right. Lots of people think differently, and that's fine.
Dust wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:15 am
And if you get pregnant and can't care for the child, there are couples ready to take that child in, waiting in line for the chance to adopt. There are charities dedicated to helping you, whether you wish to keep and raise the child yourself or find them another loving home.
I dislike this argument because bearing a child is hardly a risk-free endeavour. It's one of the most dangerous things a women can do before the age of 40, it might not kill you but it can leave a lot of scars (physically and mentally). That argument almost turns the woman into an involuntary baby incubator. If you could extract the foetus at 24 weeks and stick it in a tank to grow, I'd be all for it. That would actually be a win-win situation.

There's is only one person in the whole process who we can ask their opinion, and that's the bearer. As far as I'm concerned she has the full legal right to body autonomy and the exclusive right to choose to do with her body as she sees fit. We don't force people to give blood or donate organs, I don't see how this is any different. The women gets a clear legally defined waiting period where she gets to make a choice and that's it.

And that choice is at the expense of something else, difficult choices generally are. Let's not pretend that abortion is an easy choice, it's often a choice that haunts them for the rest of their lives. And yet, I support their right to make that choice. Because who am I to make that choice for them.

My position may possibly be affected by someone close to me having been denied this choice, and that has left scars, mentally and physically, for the rest of their lives.
Dust wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:15 am
We, the modern western world, are bankrupt. Economically, morally, culturally.
Now this is an interesting statement that says much, though I can't figure out what. I think it assumes a universal morality and a definition of a "good culture". Both of these statements are worthy of debate themselves.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by Ray »

Good arguments, Rode. I support your contentions. Very balanced.

We have too many people on this planet. Having unwanted new ones only makes the issue worse.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by crfriend »

rode_kater wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:44 pm
Dust wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:15 am
We, the modern western world, are bankrupt. Economically, morally, culturally.
Now this is an interesting statement that says much, though I can't figure out what. I think it assumes a universal morality and a definition of a "good culture". Both of these statements are worthy of debate themselves.
There is a reason why I specifically avoid using the term "moral" in conversations like these because "moral" has a lot of religious overload to it. Instead, I tend to focus on ethical which does not have that nuance. For instance, in some religious settings, it is possible to be both "pro-life" and support capital punishment. This sets up an inherent conflict which invariably turns the individual who so believes into a hypocrite. Pick one; you cannot be both in an ethical setting. Either human life is valued or it's not; setting and situation cannot define the way one goes.

I recall discussing this concept with a good pal of mine a number of years ago who, as a counsellor, has some training in the concept and he'd challenged me on my use of the term "ethical" instead of "moral", which is the more common term. I explained the difference and the nuance of the thing and he immediately understood it.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by Sinned »

r_k, actually we can be forced to donate organs. Increasingly there is a move towards positive permission - it is assumed that you consent to donations of organs on death unless you have consciously opted out previously. I think that here in Britain are like this and if not the move is certainly in that direction.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by crfriend »

moonshadow wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:29 pm
I also rather enjoy this essay by Carl Sagan regarding the abortion issue:

https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/society/o ... nn-druyan/
Moon, thank you so very much for posting that link. It's always nice to read the words of intellectual free-thinkers.
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