I'm Leaving

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ziggy_encaoua
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I'm Leaving

Post by ziggy_encaoua »

You all want the liberty to wear a skirt whenever you want but you won’t afford liberty to any individual who expresses an opinion you might not agree with. That’s cherry picking when it comes to the philosophy of liberty which is hypocrisy & it’s the kind of hypocrisy & other similar manipulation which is driving us to ruin.

But what do I know this BOB’s property & we must all comply with BOB’s infinite wisdom. Not an attitude I’ve taken with Defiant Angel in fact I’ve gone out of my way to be considerate in regards to feedback I’ve had from folk here. Because I recall not so long ago getting a whole load of complaints when I just had the one site which was an anthology of all which I happen to be. So out my own expense & effort I devised a site solely about Men’s Fashion Freedom. Because I don’t see Defiant Angel as Ziggy’s property I see it as a site dedicated to the cause of Men’s Fashion Freedom. But even though it’s a site dedicated to Men’s Fashion Freedom none of you have really made any substantial contributions yet I’ve never moaned until now.

I don’t wear make up but yet there’s a make up page on Defiant Angel. Plus I will defend the right of any guy who wants to wear make up even though I don’t because that’s the kind of guy I’m. I believe in free speech & will defend the right of bigots to say the despicable stuff they say because I believe people have the right to have an opinion & express it. Because I don’t just believe liberty is for me its for all & as I say I believe you can’t cherry pick with liberty.

To quote Voltaire ‘I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it’

Okay this is Bob’s property & yes ultimately I must respect his wishes. It appears Bob wants a forum full of discussions such as ‘Does My Bum Look Big In This Skirt’ & ‘What Colour Skirt To Wear On A Thursday’ the typical placid sh*te you so often see being discussed on crossdressing forums. Well I don’t want to partake in such things & as my views aren’t welcome here I’m off. However this site will still get a link from Defiant Angel as long as has some element of Men’s Fashion Freedom though I fear it will become BOB’s forum for whatever BOB decides to talk about.

I might set up a discussion forum on Defiant Angel in the new year so check the site out occasionally.

Well vaarwel & for all in the US vote Ron Paul in 2008
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Skirt Chaser
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Re: I'm Leaving

Post by Skirt Chaser »

ziggy_encaoua wrote:You all want the liberty to wear a skirt whenever you want but you won’t afford liberty to any individual who expresses an opinion you might not agree with. That’s cherry picking when it comes to the philosophy of liberty which is hypocrisy & it’s the kind of hypocrisy & other similar manipulation which is driving us to ruin.
Ziggy, you sound like you are complaining the library does not offer you cookies. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJlkplvYdgA This is not a site dedicated to all freedoms nor the "Kingdom of Bob" as you paint it. Contrary opinions on topics pertaining to skirts for men are welcomed, I know I have yet to hear a complaint for all my praise of jeans as a perfect garment. :wink:

Keep in mind the Cafe will be here if you decide to return and you would be as welcome as always.

Quiet Mouse

Edited to correct spelling
Last edited by Skirt Chaser on Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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JRMILLER
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ziggy

Post by JRMILLER »

Ziggy,
You can always return here to talk about men's fashion if you like. You don't have to leave and take your marbles with you!
-John
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You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself (Rick Nelson "Garden Party")
Sarongman
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Post by Sarongman »

Well Ziggy, I sometimes found your comments mildly disturbing but, they made people actually think. I was offended on another topic but did not involve myself in any recriminations, ( I am not suggesting that you ever "flamed", but gave succinct and forthright replies.) believing the good of the forum depended on keeping things civil.

If you are leaving then vaarwel and good luck with your site. I for one will miss some of your input.

Edited an hour after posting
Last edited by Sarongman on Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Peter v
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Post by Peter v »

Sorry to see you go. I think:

That is not what we want here, but we do try and keep the discussions free from worldly discussions about amongst other things such as politics and religion. There are enough misunderstandings on those issues, look around you, and see all the wars etc that have come from those issues. We think it wiser not to have them discussed here. I am sure you understand.

I am also sure that not Bob or anyone else has "told you off".
There are some unwritten "rules "which we all adhere to, without being told what they are. We feel what is correct, without any limitations. People who feel differently about or interpret those guidlines differently may get suggested to do otherwise. That is how we keep the forum what it is.

If you feel happier to leave, then by all means, but you're welcome to return.

Peter v.
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
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Post by Departed Member »

I've always assumed Ziggy's support for this Paul character was because he was/had been the drag queen and singer, Ru Paul (who at least is a person we have actually heard of in the UK!). Is this not so, then?

As for UK 'politics', Ziggy's references were to his encounters with a specific politican, not his/their policies - therefore the discussion was not 'political', by the forum's definition. Whilst Ziggy's thinking on a range of topics is, admittedly, somewhat bizarre to most of us, I feel, in this instance, he has been unjustly maligned. Indeed, this is one of the (very) rare occasions, that I feel that deep, real offence (not the wishy washy 'politically correct' version) has taken place - and not just to Ziggy, either. I am firmly behind the non-involvement of political or religious issues in this forum. However, it does seem that some folk continue to take liberties with this, completely unscathed, yet poor Ziggy is, to coin a phrase, openly 'crucified'. :cry:

Double standards, eh? :? I would respectfully remind (all) posters that many of us here do not follow, or accept, Christianity in our lives. As others have mentioned, whilst 'jumping on Ziggy's 'grave', there are (allegedly, many) other forums for expounding their predeliction.
ziggy_encaoua
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Post by ziggy_encaoua »

Okay my last post

Thanks Merlin for the support

Last night I appeared on US radio I didn't talk about Ron Paul I talked about Men's Fashion Freedom you can listen to what I said in the Thursday night podcast http://www.freetalklive.com/
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rogerbigfish
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Post by rogerbigfish »

Ziggy,

I am very sorry to see you go. I log on most days and read the new posts, and quite frankly, I very rarely reply as the topics are generally too lack lustre to warrant the effort. Not that I do not support everyone's daily struggle for acceptance as kilt and skirt wearers, but it is that so many of the topics discussed seem to concentrate on the mundane issues of style and colour etc. We have had some excellent personal stories though that I am sure have made everyone take a look at themselves and have helped us all re-appraise our attitudes to others.

It does seem to me that there is an degree of double standards here. I think that it has to accepted that as skirt wearers we are all individualists who care less about how the world in general views us than maybe the norm. We are willing to hold ourselves up to ridicule by the great unwashed masses because we believe that as individuals we have the right to choose how we dress. We do not feel that we have to conform to other's standards just because we are still in a minority. As a result the people who join this forum will by definition be those with stronger personalities and who generally are likely to hold stronger views. It is therefore to be expected that they will have strong views on a whole range of topics and form time to time might want to discuss these with people they might hold in some respect because of our shared interests. To set up one individual to dictate what can and what cannot by said is no different from having society in general saying what we can and cannot wear. The double standards become apparent when it appears OK to talk "off topic" about something like cats for instance (I don't have anything against cats personally, it is just the first one that came to mind), which have absolutely nothing to do with skirts. Where as a political leader who might engender a freer and more open society which has a greater tolerance of minority groups cannot be discussed at all though it may have a far greater relevence to our group.

Having a shared interest in one particular thing, the wearing of clothing other than trousers has brought us together as a group. But for all of us that is only one aspect of our lives. We all have many other interests and concerns. Just like everyone else we may have family, work, friendships, hobbies and many other things that we have to think about on a daily basis. These are part of what make us what we are. If we are to opperate as a coherant group to achieve an aim of widespread acceptance of skirt wearing then we must have some understanding of each other. We should not exclude some individuals because they do not always speak only in deferential terms about skirt wearing, but occasionally air other topics which concern or even amuse them. Without this basic freedom how are we to discover each others' strengths and weaknesses and offer support where it is needed? I have always assumed the the internet was about freedom of expression and not censorship. Am I wrong?

Roger.
Bob
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Post by Bob »

I'd like to clear up a few issues here, please correct me if I'm wrong.

First of all, Ziggy's political posts from time to time were never treated differently from anyone else's. His picture with the British politician was never removed, and it was entirely appropriate for the Cafe. I thought it was pretty cool, actually.

From time to time, threads that have gotten out of hand and are headed toward a political flame war get shut down, and sometimes (but rarely) even deleted. When that happens, EVERYONE who was involved in the political discussion gets locked out or deleted, not just Ziggy. In the most recent case, this was after a moderator had asked people TWICE to cease the political discourse and he was ignored. There was every good reason, according to SkirtCafe policy, to close the thread.


If you're involved in a discussion and it gets shut down in the heat of the moment, it's easy to take that personally. But please do not. There was no witch-hunt to treat Ziggy unfairly by shutting down his political discussions, but leaving others' discussions open. In fact, many people were involved in the threads that got closed, and most of them didn't take it personally and just went on to other issues.

In the aftermath of a thread closing, Ziggy took two actions:

1. He pressed the issue of why we have the rules we do on politics, and inisisted that the rule needs to be changed. This was after repeated affirmation of the existing rules by myself, by Carl, and by many other members. These threads have remained open because open discourse is valued on SkirtCafe; but that does not necessarily mean that we will change the rules just because one person complains about them insistently. Time and time again in threads like these, it has become clear that the majority support the rules the way they are.

2. As a seeming act of defiance, Ziggy added a Ron Paul ad banner to his signature. A thread explaining that Ron Paul had something to do with skirts for men (of which I was not aware) would have been appreciated; but simply adding his ad banner to a signature looked like a petty act of defiance. He has since removed this banner, of which I am thankful, because I felt it was inappropriate. Thank you, Ziggy. But still, if you wish to start a thread on Ron Paul and his relationship to men's fashion freedom, please do so.

I would like to make it absolutely clear that it was these actions that got moderators upset with Ziggy, not his original political posts. If a thread is headed in a wrong direction, we will close it. End of story, nothing personal. It's not a judgement on the people who were participating in the thread, and we are appreciative of everyone who DOES participate, even if a thread eventually has to be closed.

The vast majority of Ziggy's threads with various levels of political content are still open, and they will remain open as long as they don't head toward a flame war. Ziggy has made many valuable contributions to this forum. It would be a shame to see him go over what amounts to a relatively minor restriction of our individual freedoms (mine included) in order to ensure continued peace and widespread participation in SkirtCafe.

Finally, I would like to summarize the actions that I have taken in this case, in order to make it clear how little "fascism" has taken place:
1. I closed and deleted an old thread that was inappropriate to begin with, and that had veered toward political flame war. Ziggy was just one of many participants.
2. I held firm in terms of not changing SkirtCafe policy on political discussion.
3. I requested that Ziggy stop this nonsense --- but did not close any threads. I also reaffirmed his right to be political in nature, and to link to his websites from SkirtCafe, even in his signature.
4. I mentioned that I felt the Ron Paul ad banner was inappropriate. But I did not remove it from Ziggy's signature.

Total "moderator" actions that precipitated this "crisis": I closed and removed one thread.

Ziggy will always be welcome back. That is SkirtCafe policy. But the rules will not be changed just due to his (or anyone else's) personal whim; I seek a wide range of membership input before changing the rules. They have been arrived at by consensus over time, and existed before I became proprietor of the Cafe.
Last edited by Bob on Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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crfriend
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A note to Ziggy and the rest of SkirtCafe

Post by crfriend »

I would like to take the time to second Bob's assertion that Ziggy remains welcome at SkirtCafe. Most of Ziggy's posts, the overwhelming majority actually, were well within bounds for discussion here. I especially loved the shot of Ziggy with one of the UK politicos who had a decidedly "deer in the headlights" look -- hilarious!

SkirtCafe has rules of conduct -- as does any community -- and those rules are in place to ensure that the community functions as smoothly as possible. Experience with this forum, and others, has repeatedly pointed up certain topics that are more likely than most to cause rancor and angst; the two that figure most prominently in that list are religion and politics (in that order).

As a moderator, I have a responsibility to ensure that "public order" is not compromised. My "style" is also subtly different from Bob's in that I'm more likely to let things stand as they reach the outer edges of "order"; "You need to break eggs to make an omelet", as the saying goes, so I'm usually lenient on forceful language and the like -- if it's being used to drive home a valid and relevant point. Likewise, I'll let stand overt political commentary if it's relevant to the overall thread and is used to either drive a point home or contains important information about SkirtCafe's core raison d'etre.

I could have shut the thread down without warning or public explanation; I didn't. I could have altered another member's signature block; I didn't (to do so would have been a serious breach of ethical behaviour). I could have shut the thread down prior to my second warning. I didn't; I was hoping that my request would be listened to and respected. Instead, things continued to spiral downward and out of control until Bob stepped in and put a stop to the shenanigans once and for all.

Bear in mind that, as moderators, Bob and I maintain "back channel" communications about the goings on at the Cafe; we do this to ensure that there's sanity, or at least some sanity, at all times with our judgements and that judgements are neither hasty nor capricious. And, put bluntly, sometimes it's a tightrope act; too, both of us are human, and are subject to the same range of "hot buttons" that other humans have. We just need to control it a little better.

As an aside, and with my "mod hat" off, I'd like to mention that politics in the US altogether too frequently touches some very raw nerves -- far more so than, it seems, in the UK, Oz, or most of Europe. Making matters worse, the US is currently ramping up for another big election and emotions are "running high". So, to paraphrase something that my Dad told me many years ago, "There are just some things that one doesn't discuss in polite company"; among those are politics and religion. There's no reason to needlessly offend; if there's a hard-and-fast need, that's one thing, but for everyday affairs it's usually best to just keep the "hot button" stuff quiet.

So, in conclusion, and if you're listening Ziggy, I hope you return someday; I believe you have some important contributions.
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Post by Departed Member »

Sorry, I'm just not grasping this. Apart from Ziggy re-acting (by adding some off-beat US politician's website) to (in his opinion) over zealous 'moderation' for reasons still totally unknown - where (and what exactly) was the 'political' content which caused such an action? There was certainly NONE from the UK. Ziggy's political pursuasion and mine are probably poles apart (no-one here has the faintest inkling how I vote, or for whom) - neither of us have ever discussed our 'political' leanings here - or have any intention to so do. Whilst I (obviously!) respect the need to leave Party Politics out of forums such as this, I do not believe from a UK perspective, any UK member has been 'offended' (I'm beginning to really detest that word!) by any, even vague, reference to any UK party. So, it would seem, on the face of it, there may be another, hidden(?) reason behind this upset.

It is apparent there is a vast difference in (the moderators') interpretation of the word, "Politics", and those of us not party to its USA useage, which I believe calls for, nay, demands clarification.
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Post by Bob »

I think the disagreement has stemmed more from the principle of SkirtCafe being non-political, as opposed to any specific post or thread that people had a disagreement over.
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Since1982
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My opinion

Post by Since1982 »

As one who has had more than one argument with management over how the site is run, (in every case, after thinking it over, realizing I was wrong)......I must say, I am completely in agreement with the Master Barista and the Moderators in this. Anyone who is willing, like Bob, and spends so much of his money and time to keep this site open for so many members to have so much fun discussing their favorite subject, "Skirts and/or kilts and/or MUGs for men" and the volunteer Moderators who give soo muuuuuuuuuuuch patience and help and TIME for a completely FREE site without asking anything in return for their efforts to make it good for all who visit. Geesh, let's give them some support and help. I can't believe anyone can complain about HOW this site is run FOR FREE by these people. I'm completely surprised they have continued to do it without asking at least some monetary help to do things.

Let's THANK THEM in the easiest way, with COMPLETE SUPPORT for them. 8)
I had to remove this signature as it was being used on Twitter. This is my OPINION, you NEEDN'T AGREE.

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I've been skirted part time since 1972 and full time since 2005. http://skirts4men.myfreeforum.org/
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Post by HockeySkirt »

Well said Skip. Three cheers for Bob and Carl (am I missing any other moderators?).

Ed
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Post by Departed Member »

Bob wrote: I think the disagreement has stemmed more from the principle of SkirtCafe being non-political, as opposed to any specific post or thread that people had a disagreement over.
No, Bob, that is NOT the issue here!

You have stated:
Bob wrote:In the most recent case, this was after a moderator had asked people TWICE to cease the political discourse and he was ignored.
There was NO political discourse taking place - that IS the point! I cannot remember the last time (if, indeed, there have ever been) anything directly relating to UK politics as such, even mentioned, let alone anyone even bothering to argue about it! Party Politics has no place here - period. We're all agreed on that, are we not? So, the question is still on the table. What was the nature of the supposed political content that 'crossed that line'? It seems we are now having increasing problems with 'transatlantic' interpretation of concept, let alone words!
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