Merlin,
In my best recollection of the matter, I believe the topic that led to Ziggy's departure was a discourse between you, Ziggy and myself concerning certain historical elements surrounding mid-winter festivals and changes madeby the church of rome to bring christian celebrations into the same timeframe as non christian celebrations in the hopes to attract more people to the christian faith.
Somewhere in the middle of that discussion, Ziggy added a banner ad for a US persidential candidate to his sgnature.
What we had been discussing was historical fact, but part of that hstorical fact included politics of the early church of rome.
ChrisJ stated that he felt the discussion was offensive.
Yes, there were two warnings, both of which were ignored.
While I found the discussion enjoyable, it certainly had nothing to do with skirt wearing, and rightly should have taken place somewhere else.
I'm Leaving
Merlin... I closed a thread due to its religious/political nature. I'm really not aware what was being said or who was saying it; just that the thread was clearly veering toward flame war territory, that Carl had intervened twice, and that he had been ignored.
After I closed that thread, Ziggy began to protest the "no politics/religion" pirnciple. To me at least, that became the issue. As far as I can tell, Ziggy never made an argument that I shouldn't have closed the thread, nor did he ask me to bring it back. Rather, he made a general argument that long-standing rules should be changed. This "storming of the castle keep" attitude is bound to fail 99 times out of 100. In any case, everything he said to me was said in public (no PM or email), and I didn't remove any of it. So it's there for anyone who wishes to go back and see what Ziggy said and when.
In any case, I did not remove the thread due to its political/religious content (although that IS why I CLOSED the thread). Usually, even if I close a religious/political thread, I will leave it on the forum if things haven't gotten too out of hand.
Rather, I removed that particular thread because its previous content I felt was not appropriate: it seemed to be a place to complain about another skirts-for-men forum and the people who inhabit it. The thread was old and had fallen off the "radar screen" once, much to my relief. Then people began posting religious/political content to the end of the thread. That not only went against SkirtCafe policy, but also resurrected a thread that was embarassing to us all to begin with. Had the religous/political talk been started in a new thread, I probably would have just closed it and let it be.
Around the same time, someone else started a thread on Christian pre-history, asking a question. Someone else answered the question with a URL. Thanked the person for answering the question and closed the thread. But it's still there as well, for anyone who wants to see it.
If you really like, I can go back, resurrect the religious/political portion of that thread, and close it, so it remains for posterity. I'd rather not resurrect the original portion, since I really think it reflects badly on us as a community.
In any case, this thread is the ONLY information that I have access to that is not currently public. There were no emails or PM's between myself and Ziggy, and no other threads that I removed. If I resurrect the political portions of the thread, you will then have full access to all information required to come to your own conclusions in this matter. Please tell me if you want me to take that step.
I realize I never made a rule against complaining about other websites. But I still feel we're all better off with that thread not constantly popping up to the top of the forum; not all discussion needs to be saved for posterity. That is where moderator discretion comes in.
After I closed that thread, Ziggy began to protest the "no politics/religion" pirnciple. To me at least, that became the issue. As far as I can tell, Ziggy never made an argument that I shouldn't have closed the thread, nor did he ask me to bring it back. Rather, he made a general argument that long-standing rules should be changed. This "storming of the castle keep" attitude is bound to fail 99 times out of 100. In any case, everything he said to me was said in public (no PM or email), and I didn't remove any of it. So it's there for anyone who wishes to go back and see what Ziggy said and when.
In any case, I did not remove the thread due to its political/religious content (although that IS why I CLOSED the thread). Usually, even if I close a religious/political thread, I will leave it on the forum if things haven't gotten too out of hand.
Rather, I removed that particular thread because its previous content I felt was not appropriate: it seemed to be a place to complain about another skirts-for-men forum and the people who inhabit it. The thread was old and had fallen off the "radar screen" once, much to my relief. Then people began posting religious/political content to the end of the thread. That not only went against SkirtCafe policy, but also resurrected a thread that was embarassing to us all to begin with. Had the religous/political talk been started in a new thread, I probably would have just closed it and let it be.
Around the same time, someone else started a thread on Christian pre-history, asking a question. Someone else answered the question with a URL. Thanked the person for answering the question and closed the thread. But it's still there as well, for anyone who wants to see it.
If you really like, I can go back, resurrect the religious/political portion of that thread, and close it, so it remains for posterity. I'd rather not resurrect the original portion, since I really think it reflects badly on us as a community.
In any case, this thread is the ONLY information that I have access to that is not currently public. There were no emails or PM's between myself and Ziggy, and no other threads that I removed. If I resurrect the political portions of the thread, you will then have full access to all information required to come to your own conclusions in this matter. Please tell me if you want me to take that step.
I realize I never made a rule against complaining about other websites. But I still feel we're all better off with that thread not constantly popping up to the top of the forum; not all discussion needs to be saved for posterity. That is where moderator discretion comes in.
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Departed Member
I agree entirely! I believe I did argue against the gist of original post!Bob wrote: I'd rather not resurrect the original portion, since I really think it reflects badly on us as a community....
Ah, right! That might be difficult as there was no political debate, disagreement about political issues or 'flaming'!Bob wrote: If I resurrect the political portions of the thread, you will then have full access to all information required to come to your own conclusions in this matter. Please tell me if you want me to take that step.
Agreed! 100%! As long as we are free to, on occasion, highlight (within a post, of course!) where opinions, etc. may differ (and why) on other sites? That's not unreasonable? Whilst most posts here are fairly 'gentle' in reference to other sites, sadly, the same cannot always be said 'in reverse'!Bob wrote: I realize I never made a rule against complaining about other websites. But I still feel we're all better off with that thread not constantly popping up to the top of the forum; not all discussion needs to be saved for posterity.
I appreciate it is sometimes a difficult call! It is often tempting (judging from various websites on various topics) to 'moderate' 'because I can' and in doing so, actually spark a situation (as with Ziggy) which can so easily get out of hand. I'm more concerned about the single malicious (in my opinion) post which brought about this particular crisis. I do not/would not accept (in real life!) anyone crying, "I find X, Y or Z 'offensive'!" without they give a valid reason (in legal terms, one which would be "accepted by any reasonable person").Bob wrote: That is where moderator discretion comes in.
Thanks again, Bob, for your clarification. I would hate to see us apply a self-strangling rope around our necks!
My experience of Ziggy has been mixed and I certainly recall making some constructive suggestions about his site, but I think the difficulty is not in the web site or any other forum. I think ziggy is an interesting character and obviously stands up for what he believes in.. this is a great thing, and nobody is perfect.
When under stress, people can project their own tension onto others, and imagine everyone else as being aggressive. I guess everyone is subject to it to some degree because we can only colour the hidden world with our own palette.
It's not fair to blame this cafe though, because everyone is pretty tolerant of most things. It may just be that an individual's beliefs are not the same as those of everyone else. In that case, it's more the job of of that individual to be tolerant than anyone else's.
Why don't you stick around, Ziggy? Things can get dull if they're too predictable.
When under stress, people can project their own tension onto others, and imagine everyone else as being aggressive. I guess everyone is subject to it to some degree because we can only colour the hidden world with our own palette.
It's not fair to blame this cafe though, because everyone is pretty tolerant of most things. It may just be that an individual's beliefs are not the same as those of everyone else. In that case, it's more the job of of that individual to be tolerant than anyone else's.
Why don't you stick around, Ziggy? Things can get dull if they're too predictable.
The only thing man cannot endure is meaninglessness.
A problem I had with ziggy was here he is saying he is an advocate for fashion freedom, and other social things, yet the only picture we see of him, he looks like the run of the mill fellow dressed in the traditional punk style of the times. Supposedly he was wearing a union jack dress, but it only like a shirt to me.
I do think there should be ONE section here that deals with religion and politics directly related to the fashion limitations imposed on people. In this section and this section only can discussions concerning such things take place.
I have not understood the outright ban on political discussion here, considering one of the major things holding men and women back are politically and religiously based things. I think such discussions do have their place here, but in their own section.
Ziggy is a source of good talking points, though I do wish he would show examples of his outfits when he is out doing his political stuff.
I do think there should be ONE section here that deals with religion and politics directly related to the fashion limitations imposed on people. In this section and this section only can discussions concerning such things take place.
I have not understood the outright ban on political discussion here, considering one of the major things holding men and women back are politically and religiously based things. I think such discussions do have their place here, but in their own section.
Ziggy is a source of good talking points, though I do wish he would show examples of his outfits when he is out doing his political stuff.
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ziggy_encaoua
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ziggy_encaoua
- Member Extraordinaire
- Posts: 413
- Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:17 pm
- Location: Surrey UK
- Contact: