Lack of Respect --- Start a New Forum?

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Bob
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Lack of Respect --- Start a New Forum?

Post by Bob »

Due to a sincere lack of respect shown by a small number of members today, I have had to engage in an undue amount of moderation. Moreover, many other members have become incensed by disrespect they should not have had to endure.

This forum is open to a wide variety of opinions stated respectfully. But it is not open to temper tantrums, disrespect of any kind to other members, or disrespect of the basic premises of the forum.

As is stated very clearly in numerous places, this community is about Skirts and Kilts for Men. We are not cross-dressers and we are not transvestites. Some of us are more androgynous than others, but we all must respect the fact that this forum is primarily NOT about androgyny, but rather about MEN.

From time to time, new members here feel that this focus on men is not what they would like; that they would rather this board be more femme, more crossdresser, more transvestite, more whatever. That is a valid wish, there is nothing wrong with these things. But to expect the board to change in that direction is unrealistic and disrespectful to existing membership. We are what we are, and we are very clear about that. The assumption is that new members of this board, having had the chance to read through past posting and our rules, will understand the basic premises of our community and are willing to "sign on" to them.

This is the Internet, and anyone is free to find other on-line communities, or even make new ones as they wish. If this forum does not fit you, then I encourage you to find one that does. If there is nothing out there yet that fits you --- remember, there is a first for everything. Therefore, I will make this very sincere offer to anyone who is dissatisfied with what this forum:

If you would like to start a new on-line community with its own ground rules and focus and premises that are different from SkirtCafe --- then by all means, I will do everything I can to help you out. I will help you get a domain, set up phpBB, learn how to use the software, etc. I will empower you to build your own community as you see fit, and to serve a very real need in the world. You don't have to be a computer geek to run an on-line forum.

If you would like to take me up on this offer, please feel free to e-mail or PM me.

In the meantime --- everyone, please respect the premises of this forum, and please respect others as well.
Bob
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freestylecafe.org

Post by Bob »

OK, I'm starting a new forum that will be more oriented toward feminine men. It will be called freestylecafe.org, and it will be devoted to total fashion freedom. I am looking for moderators for it. It should be up by this weekend.
BrotherTailor

Post by BrotherTailor »

Hi Bob,
Another feature to consider adding is an un moderated forum section, where each and every inflammatory thread is moved and is "enter at your own risk". I belong to an organists forum (yeah I'm an organist) and they have such a forum that serves the purpose, check out http://www.organforum.com

Believe me if you've ever seen two church organists debating with gloves off it makes this stuff look mickey mouse... :roll:
SkirtDude

Post by SkirtDude »

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AMM
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Post by AMM »

Speaking for myself, I didn't have a problem with having people here who liked a more feminine look. In fact, I might see the odd "feminine" element that I would like to try out. If somebody's clothing choices aren't to my taste, I usually just skip the posts. Moreover, talking about why one person likes something and another hates it can lead us to greater understanding of one another.

I could even deal with people who didn't think it important to feel masculine, even if I don't agree with them. I might have had an interesting discussion with some of the folks who left, if they had been willing to listen to my perspective (and experience) and try to work to some sort of common understanding and to "agree to disagree" about some things. And I probably agree with them more than they think.

What I had, and have, a problem with is when people dismiss those who don't see eye-to-eye with them as idiots who aren't worth listening to. And that really doesn't have much to do with the ideas that the people are espousing. It's not the "freestyling" that I have a problem with, it's the One True Way attitude.

The reason I don't participate in the Atrium is that I feel that the people there have this attitude. If your new forum is able to maintain the habit of mutual respect that Tom's Cafe and SkirtCafe were once known for, I might drop by. But if it ends up being another Atrium, I think I'll give it a pass.

-- AMM
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crfriend
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Post by crfriend »

Bravo, AMM: I could not have said it better. You cut right to the quick of the problem. In this case, it wasn't a matter of taste or style, it was a matter of attitude, and that's what put a good-sized contingent of folks' noses out of kilter. It was also a whole pile of inane posturing and, ultimately (and worst of all, name-calling -- and that just won't do.

It's a shame, too, because if those who exhibited such behaviours would have taken the time to actually expound on why they hold such views some understanding might have been reached. It doesn't matter whether everybody agrees on something (highly unlikely in a diverse group like this), it's whether we can sometimes "agree to disagree" and be civil about it.

I've picked up some ideas over time here that I otherwise would not have, and I hope that I've offered some to others. Also, like most of the "elder statemen", if I see something that doesn't particularly interest me, I'll keep quiet on the matter and let things slide by peaceably. Personally, I see no percentage in kicking up a storm on things that don't much matter to me; however, the startling lack of decorum I've recently witnessed here has come as a bit of a rude awakening -- and, predictably, is was a newcomer that sowed it. Sad.

I am uncertain whether fragmention the SkirtCafe site into two factions -- "traditional MIS" (say what?) and "freestylers" -- is a good idea. We're already a tiny community by any standard, and sectioning that community further may be a recipe for a future decline. But, if that's what it takes to maintain decorum and civility, then so be it; I think we'll be poorer for it, but we were already on that road with the recent "bad behaviour". I like it here: I like the people, I like the civility, and I like the camaraderie. It'd be a shame to fracture that.

As far as BrotherTailor's imagery of "two chruch organists debating with gloves off", I'd rather like to see that. Hopefully at least they have the sense of presence to refrain from calling names and other such juvenile behaviour.
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ChristopherJ
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Post by ChristopherJ »

Well - I would just like to express my admiration and thanks to Bob for the way that he has handled this unfortunate episode. I mean that - very sincerely. You must have the patience of a Buddha.

If you create another forum - aimed at skirted men who prefer a 'freestyle' discussion environment, then I would certainly use that forum as well as this one - as I can learn from all men who wear MUGs. But I regard the Skirt cafe as my internet 'home'. It just feels comfortable here.
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SkirtDude

Post by SkirtDude »

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Bob
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Post by Bob »

Here are my thoughts on the new forum, freestlyecafe.org, so far:

1. FreestyleCafe will start as a "clone" of SkirtCafe. It will "take over" (and expand upon) the Fashion Freedom section of SkirtCafe. Those threads will leave SkirtCafe, which will subsequently revert to only "Skirts and Kilts for Men" and "Kilts, Kilts" (plus the other miscellaneous forums, of course).

2. Membership at FreestyleCafe will start out the same as at SkirtCafe, hopefully with the same passwords as well. Everyone who is a member of SkirtCafe today will be a charter member of FreestyleCafe. However, after that, the memberships will grow distinct and separate; membership on one board will NOT automatically result in membership on the other.

3. FreestyleCafe will have the same principles of basic respect for others as SkirtCafe. That is a non-negotiable, in my mind, for ANY Internet forum. I understand that some forums use a "no holds barred" section, but I do not want to do that. We just need to learn how to show respect.

4. FreestyleCafe will be dedicated to "Total Fashion Freedom for Men." We will see where that goes as it is further defined by the community. But it will be willing to explore "femme-ness" (for lack of a better term) in ways that SkirtCafe really is not.

5. FreestyleCafe will be a "sibling site" to SkirtCafe. SkirtCafe will include a prominent link to FreestyleCafe and vice versa. Neither site will be "above" the other, they will both be equal, with their own distinct domain, statement of purpose, logo, rules, etc.

6. I will be looking for a moderator to help head up FreestyleCafe, hopefully someone who sees himself as a "feminine man" or a "total fashion freedom freestyler." We'll see how things go over time, but if things go well, I hope to basically get out of the loop on FreestyleCafe. However, I will be hosting it, as I am now hosting SkirtCafe.

--------

A bit more on why I have chosen to make this change: I'm not just looking for people to get along. I want SkirtCafe to stand for something. Something that we can articulate and explain to others easily, as a way of re-defining cultural perceptions. For that to happen, SkirtCafe needs to maintain a focus on defining and pursuing its primary mission.

I added the "Freestyle Fashion" section at the request of members. But I have come to realize in so many ways that this is not really the mission of SkirtCafe. Instead, it dilutes and confuses the mission.

On the other hand, FreestyleCafe could end up with its own distinct and valid viewpoint on the issues. However, as long as Freestyling is a footnote as SkirtCafe, that will never happen. Although a number of serious freestylers have been coming to SkirtCafe recently, I do not believe that SkirtCafe has been serving the needs of the Total Freestyle community very well.

Thus, we have a case where 2+2<4. I believe that we will be able to achieve mutual respect if both communities have the opportunity of articulate self-definition in their own space. And we can bring those two approaches to the world. They are both valid, and both different from the Drag/TV/CD/TS thinking, which is all that most people have ever heard of. We will retain a sense of unity by keeping the two sites as "sibling sites."

Finally, this should go without saying --- keeping decorum is VERY important. Simply put, flame wars drive away membership. Two peaceful sits will be much better than one site constantly at war. And although there are many possible reasons for the flame wars we've recently witnessed, I believe that one reason is that SkirtCafe has really not been serving the Freestyle community so well.

So starting next Monday, we will be in a brave new world of skirting!
Big and Bashful
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Post by Big and Bashful »

Excellent idea, good to see things progress.
SkirtDude

Post by SkirtDude »

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alexthebird
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Post by alexthebird »

I haven't had the opportunity to do anything more than give the new posts a cursory glance for about a week and half now, but I wanted to put my two cents in on this particular discussion because I'm a little disappointed in the concept of two forums.

It has been said more than once here (thank you AMM, among others) that it was the lack of respect, the tone and behavior of some posters that was offensive, not their content. I agree, but there is a little voice inside of me suggesting that those poster's lack of civility is about to set up a barrier to future dialog.

Do we really want to reduce exposure to different ways of thinking by creating different spaces for those who are grounded in their masculinity while rejecting one of masculinity's prime symbols (trousers) and those who wish to explore what masculinity means, while rejecting that same symbol? Isn't that what "continuing dialog on gender is encouraged in the context of fashion freedom for men" all about?

I'd have preferred finding a way to address the misbehavior for what it was rather than setting up a new forum.
Bob
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Delay at least a week

Post by Bob »

I can hear both sides of the issue here. Do we really need a new forum, or is it a matter of a lack of respect by a small number of people? Depending on the day, I feel one way or the other.

In any case, I'm so overburdened that a new forum this weekend is unrealistic. So it won't happen for at least another week.

In the meantime, hopefully things will be getting back to normal here.
Stevie D
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Re: Delay at least a week

Post by Stevie D »

Bob wrote:I can hear both sides of the issue here. Do we really need a new forum, or is it a matter of a lack of respect by a small number of people? Depending on the day, I feel one way or the other.

In any case, I'm so overburdened that a new forum this weekend is unrealistic. So it won't happen for at least another week.

In the meantime, hopefully things will be getting back to normal here.
Bob,
I think that since the 'disrespectful flareup' a couple of weeks ago, things have more or less settled down, and the Cafe is working well again.

I am largely not in favour of starting a new 'freestylers' forum, as I feel it would dilute the style and content of the things we seem to be wishing to talk about at the moment. Also, it would possibly polarise MIS into freestylers and bravehearts even further; not a positive step in my view. I think there are sufficient subcategories in Skirt Cafe as it stands, to cater for our varied interests and favourite topics. The Cafe is not really broken at all, so (as I've mentioned before) I feel its best not to try and fix it.

Any problems of disrespect are the fault of the perpetrators, not the Cafe itself, and as such, becomes a moderation issue. I think you have now addressed the task of having at least one extra moderator. (Good choice in Carl!). It is indeed perfectly possible to have debate, sometimes heated, without becoming rude or disrespectful. I think it would be wrong to have a completely sanitised Cafe where no-one is allowed to say anything radical at all. Therefore, I should like to suggest that you leave things as they are for the time being at least, and see how it all goes. If nothing else, it ought to save you a lot of extra work :)
Many thanks once again for all the hard work and mental energy you put in for us in maintaining this Cafe.
Stevie D
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crfriend
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Re: Delay at least a week

Post by crfriend »

I can hear both sides of the issue here. Do we really need a new forum, or is it a matter of a lack of respect by a small number of people?
I've been expending some measure of thought on the problem as well, and am leaning towards humbly recommending against the creation of a separate forum for freestyle. I say this because the "big tent theory" seems to be working fairly well, and with the exception of a single nasty flare-up (which better moderation provisions have already been made for if it happens again in the future), having a single forum with "sub-fora" seems the most inclusive route.

Separating the factions off into their own "rooms" will do precious little to foster a sense of acceptance for everybody which, I feel, is central to getting MIS accepted in the general populace. If we section ourselves and those factions squabble all the time, valuable energy that could be better used is spent detracting from what, it seems, most of us are ultimately aiming at.

I'll admit that a lot of this is contingent upon the behaviour of the participants; however, there's no guarantee that in a split forum it wouldn't happen again.
In the meantime, hopefully things will be getting back to normal here.
Things have, in large measure, settled down. The moderators just need to take quick action if we sense a repeat coming, and present a unified cogent argument for their actions.
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