Recent invasion of Evangelical Orthodox Freestylers

Discuss recent changes, make suggestions, etc.
Bob
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Post by Bob »

I realized walking home today... if we cannot tolerate and respect one another, then how on earth can we expect the wider world to tolerate and respect us while wearing a kilt or skirt?

So..... thank you for all your wise words everyone. I think we need to keep this forum together. We must make the tent big enough for all skirt-wearing men. We certainly are a diverse crowd.

However, some changes are needed. We need to be more careful about respecting others. That does not just involve respecting others' choice of dress, but also their sense of gender identity. Some of us are very concerned that we look or feel "masculine." Others don't care. Both are valid approaches to gender. Similarly, we have varying approaches on the degree to which our clothing does or does not carry meaning to the outside world. All viewpoints on these important topics must be respected.

I'm going to make a few more tweaks to that end. But I'm tired now, so I won't do it today. In any case, the take-home message is that mutual respect is necessary. We live and learn, and hopefully we can learn to respect each other better as time goes on.
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Post by Peter v »

We are all MEN, wearing skirts. Everybody can see that. To think that people see it otherwise is not true. The fact is that being scared of the negative influence of men who dress somewhat less manly if that can be so described, is ungrounded. just waering any skirt, even if the rest of you looks like a rough and tough "Hell's Angel" ( A well known image) you may still be regarded as ... um a man trying to look as a woman. I do think that disregardless of what clothing combinations we choose, we all wish to be seen as men, wearing skirts. WE all stand side by side to get men in skirts accepted.

The realisation that so many real men once freed of their chains, show what was always there but kept silent for the manly image, the ability to feel, to show emotion, things that are generally not thought of as manly, and those things are reflected in the way the men clothe themselves, may be a shock to many "manly" men, but it is a fact. And those free men are no less manly than before. Comming out is also a name for that. And still those men are not travestites, but men. Understanding what a man really is takes many fears away of losing that rough and tough untouchable image. If you are rough and tough even wearing a skirt, you may even be more so.

Every man does his own bit for acceptation. By wearing what he feels good in out in public. There may be advantages with advertising by for example Utilikilts, showing the very "manly" attire. A image which I think is suitable for the "Cause". The big difficulty here is of course that every body has different preferences, nobody wants to look exactly as the other person. Some men are rough and rugged, wear beaver skins, never wash and eat rabbits raw. Others wine and dine in three piece suits that cost more than the queen mary. That is diversity. But they are all men.

It is very good to bring the variations in thinking to our attention. Keeps us all aware and thinking along the same line. That line is pretty wide however because we are all different.

With regards to public acceptance, If you have a campaign which for example shows only workers in workers kilts, like Utilikilts, if that is EVENTUALLY accepted, and you have a wish to wear some other form of skirt, you may not be accepted in that because we have done our darndest best to brainwash people that Only that type of skirt, worn Only with those shirts or whaterver is manly and acceptable. Convincing people there after that there are more posibilitys may be even more time consuming than before.

I therfore believe that skirt wearing by men should be presented as broad as possible, so that we MEN can manoever in that broad acceptance freely without falling beside our own narrow margins we set ourselves.

Always it must be projected as Men wearing skirts.

If I look at how the fashion world changes things from one year to the other, and we all accept it and follow like sheep, it may only take a few fashion goeroes one year to put skirt wearing for men on the front page.

I mean virtually unlimited, or better, you can wear what you like and it is all acepted. If you are manly, wear a manly outfit. no problem, If you want to wear something different at a party, go ahead. Think of it like wearing jeans and t shirt all the week to work, and wearing a floral blouse and shorts on saturday and a three piece suit to a anniversary sunday. Skirts can be changed too, in the same way, and gives variation to your wardrobe. But that is not compulsary. It would be POSSIBLE without people saying "Hey that's not a Utilikilt, so he must be a "tranny" or some other stupid talk.

Of course the basis of the attention to skirt wearing may be a easily recognisable image, but we get vieuwd all the time, so if we dress manly in a skirt, we look manly. Before country wide acceptance and thereafter.

The fact that we can discuss this freely with each other here shows we all want the same, and together we stand strong.

It is a challenge in itself to accept the idea that you can vary clothing in the same way as women have been able to do for so long. The way of thinking for the man was before, less clothes is better. Looking good takes time so don't bother. With the possibilitys ( if interested) of all the different skirts and fitting apparel both very manly and other, it is like being born again. Think of it like getting a drivers licence, even though you drive a clapped out VW Bug, with that licence you may drive that masserati or whatever. That is why I say when possible present skirt wearing in a unbridaled way, but present it as MEN who want to wear them, still being MEN. Or put it this way, Men are awakening to fashion, and want more. Skirts are part of that awakening. By saying it in that way, there is no suggestion of manly or femminine, but it becomes new clothing for the MAN. Sometimes it's just how it's said.


I hope it's understandable. I stand fully open to criticism.

Best regards,
From Holland,
Peter v.
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
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crfriend
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Post by crfriend »

We are all MEN, wearing skirts. Everybody can see that. To think that people see it otherwise is not true.[...]
Is it true always? I'm drawn to a comment that someone made recently about taking a look in a mirror and almost "not recognising himself" -- the perception of the reflection in a piece of glass was strong enough to make him question himself, "Have I gone too far?". If we, sometimes, ourselves, are sometimes confused, what sort of signal are we sending to others?

The "tipping point" above will vary with each and every one of us, and we need to heed our own "internal compass" when it comes to making our fashion choices -- and sometimes that compass will steer us away from things that might look good, but might violate other facets of who we are. Ultimately, is the right to choose that's important, not tossing aside the personas that we have striven all our lives to develop and nurture.
The fact is that being scared of the negative influence of men who dress somewhat less manly if that can be so described, is ungrounded. just waering any skirt, even if the rest of you looks like a rough and tough "Hell's Angel" ( A well known image) you may still be regarded as ... um a man trying to look as a woman.
I believe you'll find that this is a real bugbear with guys in skirts, and it's driven by a concern that we may (I'll stop ever so slightly short of saying, "will") be misconstrued as being something other than we are (and only we, and those closest to us, know us for who we really are) -- and that can be very disquieting to people. Hence, we see overcompensation with everything but the skirt that can throw the whole look off.

There's a an old Oriental proverb that states, "The nail that sticks up is the first to get hammered down." In going against the nap of society's fabric we're a nail that's sticking up; it's a question of, "How far are we willing to stick up?", not one of, "I feel like hiding in the masses".

Never discount the power of the inner voice; it's right more often than it's wrong.
The realisation that so many real men once freed of their chains, show what was always there but kept silent for the manly image, the ability to feel, to show emotion, things that are generally not thought of as manly, and those things are reflected in the way the men clothe themselves, may be a shock to many "manly" men, but it is a fact. And those free men are no less manly than before.
I'll bet that, if everybody here would be honest, there's not a bloke amongst us who hasn't cried as an adult; I'll bet that there's not a one of us that hasn't (even if he had to sneak it) paused to smell the flowers on a spring day; I'll bet that there's not a one of us who doesn't feel empathy for others -- and yet these actions are primarily billed as "feminine". It's horse-hockey of course, and everybody is his "heart of hearts" knows it -- but yet the charade goes on. Why? Probably just because nobody is willing to "go first". They worry about the ridicule (getting "hammered down") they might receive for "being less than men"; and that, too, is utter bull. And those actions are rather less noticeable than walking down the street in a skirt.
It is very good to bring the variations in thinking to our attention. Keeps us all aware and thinking along the same line. That line is pretty wide however because we are all different.
Here's where respect for other's opinions and feelings comes to the fore. I'm not saying that we all need to agree all the time -- far from it; we need diversity and intellectual challenge to develop -- we just need to understand that disagreements need to be dealt with in a respectful manner.
I mean virtually unlimited, or better, you can wear what you like and it is all acepted.
Whilst I applaud your forward-looking vision, I'm reminded that I came under fire for espousing such a notion not so very long ago. The vision is a good and just one, and one I believe should be striven for; but, it's not likely to happen any time soon. There's too much inertia.
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Post by Peter v »

Thank you, crfriend. If I have been "corrected"then thank you for doing so. :P

The real problem we now have is that aparently there are not enough men actually out there wearing skirts, to be noticed. I hope that I'm not right, but if I am correct, put on the skirt and get out there. THAT is the only real way to be not one nail which hurts and gets hammered down, we need to become a nail bed, each point bieng noticed but not doing any harm, and left alone. So WHILE DOING IT, (wearing a skirt) we can talk amongst ourselves about what to say when asked about skirt wearing, and other things but only talking and no wearing is a no no and gets us nowhere. If you are a manly skirt wearer, get out there, so that people can see you, the manly wearer. If we want to get recognition now, we should take a delegation to .. where is that in the US? Parlement? the lower house? and make a case of it. And ask for official recognition of a skirt also as a men's garment and that men may wear it. And challenging skirt wearing by men is not allowd, may nit be neccessary, because it probably is. With that, the generlal public could accept it also, because of it's official recognition.

I'm not so up to date on politics, but it comes down to making it "public" to the general public that it's just another piece of clothing that men can wear.

Then any prejudice from the bosses will be forced out by the fact that the general public can and has accepted it.

That of course is ideal thinking, but we just don't have a lifetime to wait until everybody has gotten used to the idea. Which means that many of us will be the nails that stick out. And let us hope that we don't get actually nocked down.

All the while propagating it as a MALE thing, that it's MEN in skirts, being men all the while in skirts.

Hope this stimulates some thinking. Aren't there any lawjers or politicians wearing skirts out there who could give some tips or help?

Peter v.
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
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Post by ChristopherJ »

. . if we cannot tolerate and respect one another, then how on earth can we expect the wider world to tolerate and respect us while wearing a kilt or skirt?
Amen to that.
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Post by Sarongman »

Thank you Bob. You have said it all, and better than I could have. There is an old saying "united we stand; divided we fall" which could be tied to the "divide and conquer" saying. This is essentially a forum where we 'meet' to discuss amicably our experiences and give mutual support. If we try to ram our own views down other throats in an aggressive manner, we not only alienate many members of this board, we also could fracture this board, possibly fatally. I respect, and support, those who choose to be "femme" and those who wish to pass as women, but have absolutely no desire to do likewise. I would hope that these same people would also respect me and those like me who merely wish to wear unbifurcated garments as an article of mens wear.
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Post by jamie001 »

We should not worry about masculine or feminine. In my opinion this is what is holding back the men's fashion freedom movement. The problem is that men cannot seem to reject the false-programming that they received as little boys regarding masculinity and that masculinity is superior to femininity. We don't need the concept of masculine and feminine. What we really need is PEOPLE BEING THEMSELVES and accepting each other as a critical part of the same movement. Masculine and feminine are flawed social constructs. Being yourself and ignoring all of the false programming is the only way to go.

Regards,

Jamie :-)
Fashion Freedom for Men!!
Very Proud of my Feminine Side but still presenting as a Male

SkirtDude wrote:
Bob wrote: manly.skirtcafe.org
femme.skirtcafe.org
men-in-skirts.org (men in skirts and supporters)
freestyle.org (could include women who experiment with fashion freedom)
skirtsewing.org (which is the real reason I'm here :))

Personally I'm not too concerned as to whether things are masculine / feminine, though (as I have previously mentioned) I avoid pinks / purples / floral prints simply because a guy in a skirt already has enough social baggage to deal with without adding "girleyness" to the skirt.

I arrived here after IMFF's disintegration so I'm not sure if I'm part of "us" or "them" and really can't form any opinions on which way things are drifting. I think having a critical mass of people and good moderation (both of which skirtcafe has) makes a huge difference in whether or not a web forum is fun to participate in or not. Splitting things up messes with the critical mass aspect and could make things harder to moderate too.
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Post by jamie001 »

I believe that we need to accept that skirts are considered as feminine just as nail polish, earrings, and high heels. We should reject the concept that only skirts are good and the other things that I mentioned are evil. That is the problem in a nutshell! I wear skirts, nail polish, high heels, and earrings, however, I still use my male name and don't try to deceive anyone into thinking that I am female. Therefore, according to the charter of this forum, I belong here and much as anyone else does. In order to achieve fashion freedom, blokes need to be free to wear whatever they want to wear including skirts, nail polish, heels, makeup, etc. Women wear everything that blokes wear including neckties. All of the items that I mentioned were worn by men several hundred years ago and they even added a little more fem flair with the wigs and makeup. Maybe we should emulate our forefathers here and have a forum dedicated to wigs and makeup. After all, if it is good enough for George Washington, it is surely good enough for all of us. Open you minds and and come out of the box of non-expression that a screwed-up society has placed males in within the past several hundred years.
merlin wrote:Yeah, I fully back everything Bob and Carl have said, and I understand where AMM is coming from, too. The other sites mentioned (used to) cater for those with androgeny in mind. Half-way houses to 'Crossdressing' or whatever, if you prefer.

But, this site has always been 'reserved' (if you like!), for those folk who are men, who want to look and act like men, whilst wearing un-bifurcated clothing, principally skirts and Kilts. That in no way discounts female support and input, which isn't just welcome, but quite honestly, is vital to help overcoming current (perceived?) prejudice(s). It's all very well to say (and I'm not 'having a go') we should expand into other areas, but some of those scenarios, to be blunt, put people off. Now, they don't bother me, but they sure as h*ll, bother those around us, not so 'accomodating'. My other half would go berserk, if I arrived home with painted finger nails, tattoos or a moustache (for instance!). And she is more tolerant than many! It's like that USA march - the press 'picked up', and focussed on, the bloke wearing tights(?) and high heels. Never mind the rest - any of 'em! They were 'just' blokes wearing (oh! how unusual!) skirts. Now, much as I (or anyone else) might agree with that blokes 'right to fashion freedom', it did nothing, nothing at all, to help the 'cause' (if that is what you want to call it).
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Post by jamie001 »

The problem here is "what is a desirable male image" and who is qualified to make that decision?

The answer to that question is that a desirable male image does not take a fem name or try to deceive folks that you are a woman. That is all that there is to it. For me that means wearing wearing skirts, earrings, women's sandals, red toenail polish, and a woman's hair style. I still use my birth-given male name and don't attempt to deceive anyone that I am a woman because I am not.

If you try to go beyond this criteria, you are putting men back into the little boxes that they have been in for the past 200 years. Do you see my point? Who is to judge? When you judge you are most likely judging by societies already screwed-up concepts. George Washing would have been fine the the freestylers during his time.
BrotherTailor wrote:I'm so new here...I hope I'm not one of the neo fundies...

Forgive my ignorance of what IMFF stands for etc. I don't know.

I was intrigued by the discussion on here, and so signed on. My personal feeling on the matter of dress are something of a "double" standard I suppose. When out in public I see myself as an ambassador, I'm being seen and noticed by others, and they are making judgments about me based on my appearance. For this reason I present in a conservative, traditional way. Wearing a kilt type skirt is one way of doing this.

When I am at home, by myself, I see nothing wrong with experimenting. I can wear long skirts, petticoats, feminine tops and so forth. who cares? No one. I would never wear such things in public - no more than I would run around in my knickers in public. There is a time and a place for everything. For me, while it is a form of self expression, the clothes I wear are not "who I am" and so I find it easy to restrain any rash impulses.

I would not want to belong to a strictly cross dressing forum...it does not interest me to pretend. I think this website is fine "as is", but only the owner can make a final judgment in that regard. To my mind (weak and warped though it may be) I think we as men have a better chance of convincing society at large that we are serious and normal in our skirt wearing if we maintain a traditionally male look. I think those who sew on here have the greatest scope in creating clothes that project a desirable male image.

I've really tried to get away from labelling others...I still fall into the temptation, but try to avoid it if possible. There is a lot of flexibility in how one presents himself as a man in a skirt, and unless we can see each person's style in living colour, there is a danger of friendly fire...
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Post by jamie001 »

I believe that it is important that skirtcafe not only supports the rights to wear skirts, but also the right to wear accessories with that skirt whether those accessories are masculine or feminine by societal definitions. In other words, we need to promote the wearing of skirts with masculine items as well as with fem items such as high heels, nail polish and makeup. We should be promoting the concept of getting men out of the box that has been created for the during the past several hundred years and back into the mode of fashion freedom that existed during the days of our forefathers that wore skirts, makeup, wigs, high-heels, nail polish, etc. This is the only way to true fashion freedom for men. Placing restrictions on men will only create another box. Does that make sense?

ChristopherJ wrote:Well, I can see that AMM, Bob, crfriend - and maybe others - have alluded to posts that are "dismissive of masculinity" made by so-called Freestyle Fundamentalists. Why cannot someone point out which posters are being referred to here - and give quotes from the posts that they have found offensive. Otherwise, this is simply not fair - some people are just making vague allusions here about some other people on this forum - whom they refuse to identify. What is that all about?

To be honest, I am left wondering what all the fuss is about. Yes, there has been a shift in the character of Skirt Cafe lately - but as Bob says, that is probably because IMFF is still down and the Atrium is dying on its cyber feet. But the new folders were created to make room for this broadening of character. What on earth is the Freestyle Fashions folder for - if not for freestyle fashionistas to congregate in and compare notes? If any "manly" kilt wearing gentleman is likely to be offended by freestyle fashion issues, then he should refrain from reading the posts in that folder.

As much as I respect Bob, I must say that for me, the idea of splitting the Cafe into manly.skirtcafe.org and femme.skirtcafe.org strikes me as absolutely awful. Why do we need divisions like this? As long as the Skirt Cafe always maintains a presence that is characterised by being simply about skirts as a fashion for men - I can't see what the problem is. For people who persistently post stuff that emphasises wearing skirts in order to look like a woman, they can be warned - and perhaps have membership revoked. What is the problem there?
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Post by crfriend »

We should not worry about masculine or feminine. In my opinion this is what is holding back the men's fashion freedom movement. The problem is that men cannot seem to reject the false-programming that they received as little boys regarding masculinity and that masculinity is superior to femininity. We don't need the concept of masculine and feminine. What we really need is PEOPLE BEING THEMSELVES and accepting each other as a critical part of the same movement. Masculine and feminine are flawed social constructs. Being yourself and ignoring all of the false programming is the only way to go.
That's all well and good, but your thesis is badly flawed in that it utterly discounts that the notions of "masculinity" and "feminity" exist -- those notions have been with humankind since time immemorial. They exist in all cultures and civilisations. The key we should be taking from our "new and enlightened" view is that they are equal -- different, yes, but equal (and don't try the "Apartheid Argument", either; it doesn't hold water). The two should be celebrated and cherished, not shoved under some sort of dingy throw-rug conveniently conjured for the purpose.

These are topics that are interesting to talk about just because there's not much work publised in the layman's domain that we can latch onto. They are also topics that can be inconceivably uncomfortable to talk about as well -- for the same reason -- in some cases it's terra-incognita. So, before you slag off on those who believe in the fundamental dichotomy of men/women and masculine/feminine, might I suggest that you think and reflect about the matter before flippantly dismissing it?
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jamie001 wrote:I believe that it is important that skirtcafe not only supports the rights to wear skirts, but also the right to wear accessories with that skirt whether those accessories are masculine or feminine by societal definitions. In other words, we need to promote the wearing of skirts with masculine items as well as with fem items such as high heels, nail polish and makeup. .......... Does that make sense?
Count me out, for one! This forum wasn't conceived as a 'total fashion freedom' site, more the freedom for men to wear, and be freely accepted wearing, unbifurcated garments, aka. skirts and Kilts.

Whilst it doesn't particularly bother me what other folk choose to wear, if being seen (by, for instance, my wife!) doing so obstructs my attempts to achieve my fight(?) for others' acceptance of my (conservative) apparel, then I'm strongly opposed to even giving the idea any serious consideration. If you add all of the 'fem' items you propose, then you'll just end up looking like a 'quasi'-woman, respected by neither man 'nor woman, into the bargain. :evil:
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Post by jamie001 »

As I stated somewhere in another of many posts last night, in the past men have worn all of these items. Look at our forefathers wearing wigs and makeup. By today's flawed standards, you could make a case that they look feminine. Consider that men need to reclaim their fashion freedom. That is the goal that we must achieve. The industrial revolution turned the male into a clone that with a fear of being different. This is where the fear of the "F" word began. :)
merlin wrote:
jamie001 wrote:I believe that it is important that skirtcafe not only supports the rights to wear skirts, but also the right to wear accessories with that skirt whether those accessories are masculine or feminine by societal definitions. In other words, we need to promote the wearing of skirts with masculine items as well as with fem items such as high heels, nail polish and makeup. .......... Does that make sense?
Count me out, for one! This forum wasn't conceived as a 'total fashion freedom' site, more the freedom for men to wear, and be freely accepted wearing, unbifurcated garments, aka. skirts and Kilts.

Whilst it doesn't particularly bother me what other folk choose to wear, if being seen (by, for instance, my wife!) doing so obstructs my attempts to achieve my fight(?) for others' acceptance of my (conservative) apparel, then I'm strongly opposed to even giving the idea any serious consideration. If you add all of the 'fem' items you propose, then you'll just end up looking like a 'quasi'-woman, respected by neither man 'nor woman, into the bargain. :evil:
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Post by jamie001 »

Merlin,

Do you understand that by not advocating total fashion freedom for men you are simply placing men in another box regarding what they can and cannot wear? Why do you think it is necessary to do this? The hardcore freestyler is you friend and we need to work together to achieve fashion freedom for men. Do you believe in equality between men and women? Women already have fashion freedom. There are articles in women's magazines that tell how to masculinize their wardrobes. There are even advertisements for "Boys Underwear for Women". We need articles in GQ magazine that tell us how to add a little "feminine flare" to our dull, drab and boring masculine wardrobe. How about an advertisement like "Girls Knickers for men"? When this occurs, we have reached fashion equality. Until then, men are second-class fashion citizens. I believe that all of these debates are bing fueled by some males fear of their feminine side. We need to embrace our feminine sides in order to become a complete person. Please open you mind and think about the good advice that I am giving you. Don't you want to reclaim the fashion freedom that our forefathers had? BTW, that includes skirts, high heels, wigs, nail polish, and makeup. Together we can make a difference. :)

merlin wrote:
jamie001 wrote:I believe that it is important that skirtcafe not only supports the rights to wear skirts, but also the right to wear accessories with that skirt whether those accessories are masculine or feminine by societal definitions. In other words, we need to promote the wearing of skirts with masculine items as well as with fem items such as high heels, nail polish and makeup. .......... Does that make sense?
Count me out, for one! This forum wasn't conceived as a 'total fashion freedom' site, more the freedom for men to wear, and be freely accepted wearing, unbifurcated garments, aka. skirts and Kilts.

Whilst it doesn't particularly bother me what other folk choose to wear, if being seen (by, for instance, my wife!) doing so obstructs my attempts to achieve my fight(?) for others' acceptance of my (conservative) apparel, then I'm strongly opposed to even giving the idea any serious consideration. If you add all of the 'fem' items you propose, then you'll just end up looking like a 'quasi'-woman, respected by neither man 'nor woman, into the bargain. :evil:
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There is no "Invasion"

Post by jamie001 »

I don't believe that there is an invasion of the Freestylers. I believe what is happening is an evolution of skirtcafe to the next level of advocating full fashion freedom for men while still maintaining our male names and not trying to deceive anyone that we are women. Therefore we need to be an advocate for the masculine Neanderthal man and well as the very feminine girlie man that like to wear makeup with his skirts. Does this make sense? There is no invasion, just an evolution and some folks that want to take the though process here to the next level. In other words, it is perfectly fine to be a manly man or a Nancy boy like myself. We just need to accept and respect each other.

Jamie :)
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