Should we be SkirtCafe?

Discuss recent changes, make suggestions, etc.

Postby beverlonian » Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:27 pm

[quote="Bob"]"Tom's Cafe" was dropped out of respect to our founder; tomscafe.org is now a memorial to him.
quote]

Sorry Bob, I just can't get my head round how dropping the name is a mark of respect: in fact maintaining the name is the mark of respect! ...my tuppence worth.

Joe
User avatar
beverlonian
Member
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:32 pm
Location: Beverley, England

Postby Bob » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:27 pm

I did not have any choice over the name dropping; the Cafe was handed over to me sans name, and it was up to us to then find a new name.
Bob
Barista Emeritus
 
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:31 pm
Location: New England

Postby beverlonian » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:13 am

Bob wrote:I did not have any choice over the name dropping; the Cafe was handed over to me sans name, and it was up to us to then find a new name.


Ok Bob, apologies, I didn't realise that.

Entirely agree with Merlin over the word 'Fashion' and would also go along with his suggestions of "Bob's Place" or "Cafe Unique" but personally would rather retain the word "Cafe" in the title as I believe this was always a place, as Hamish put it sometime in the past, to stop and enjoy a coffee and chat.

My entry: "Freedom Cafe", or (tongue-in-cheek) "MUGs Dis-united" :oops:
User avatar
beverlonian
Member
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:32 pm
Location: Beverley, England

Postby Skirt Chaser » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:54 am

AMM wrote:On the one hand, I'd have to admit that the name "SkirtCafe" sounds a little lame to me. Sort of like a place where sexist guys would hang around to look at "skirts" (the rather depersonalizing term for women.)


Uh oh, I better check, is my username depersonalizing to men? They wear skirts too, you know. :wink:

Quiet Mouse, technically only a 'Quiet Man' chaser rather than any guy in a skirt
User avatar
Skirt Chaser
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 698
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:28 pm
Location: North America

Postby Milfmog » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:35 am

Skirt Chaser wrote:Quiet Mouse, technically only a 'Quiet Man' chaser rather than any guy in a skirt

Oh well... there goes another fantasy, sigh :D


Ian.
Do not argue with idiots; they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Cogito ergo sum - Descartes
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum - Ambrose Bierce
User avatar
Milfmog
Moderator
 
Posts: 2230
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:30 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire, UK

OT. Very, Very OT

Postby AMM » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:08 pm

Skirt Chaser wrote:Uh oh, I better check, is my username depersonalizing to men? They wear skirts too, you know. :wink:


Only if you use the word "skirt" to refer to the man rather than the clothing.

One possible test: if the skirt-wearing man you are chasing were to take off his skirt and throw it to one side while running in the other direction, which way would you run? (There's a scene in Walter Scott's Rob Roy where the hero uses this trick to escape from his English captors.)

If you run after the skirt, you're not depersonalizing anybody. :) But on the other hand, if you run after the skirt, (unlike the Mounties) you won't get your man. :(

+ + +

Now, to get very, very OT: the German equivalent to "skirt chaser" is Schürtzenjäger -- which is literally, "apron hunter." Yet skirt, shirt, and Schürtze are all originally the same word (Scandinavian "sk" corresponds to German/English sch/sh) whose meanings have diverged more than their pronunciations. It suggests that this expression dates back to the time when these were all the same word.

So, according to this (very unreliable!) linguistic analysis, you could say "skirt chasing" has been around for longer than skirts!

In other words, SkirtChaser, you're part of a long and (dis-?)honorable tradition. :lol:

-- AMM
User avatar
AMM
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 841
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:01 pm
Location: Thanks for all the fish!

Postby Charlie » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:16 pm

Are you chasing the skirt, or whoever happens to be in it at the time?

Charlie

Ummm .... Just re-read AMM's post and found I've said the same thing :roll:
If I want to dress like a woman, I'll wear jeans.
User avatar
Charlie
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 633
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:52 pm
Location: Somerset, England

Postby ChristopherJ » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:35 pm

I'd just like to add a bit to my previous input on this discussion. As I said earlier in the thread, I am perfectly happy with the name 'Skirtcafé'. I can see that some other forum members feel the same way as me and some others do not. Fair enough.

However, I think that in making a decision about the name of this forum we must consider carefully who is important with respect to this issue. That is, who should the name of the forum be aimed at?

In my mind the forum name should state what the forum is all about - so that new (potential) members will be able to find it and know that it could perhaps cater to their interests. My opinion is that because a name like Bobs' cafe (or something similar) does not describe the forum content at all, any potential new member may well not find it or not recognise it as being relevant to them - whereas Skirt Café would be recognised as being relevant.

For those who wear kilts and do not like the name of Skirt Café, I'd just like to ask - what is the difference between a skirt and a kilt?

<whistles in a fake innocent sort of way . . > :twisted:
It's never too late to have a happy childhood . . .
ChristopherJ
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 427
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:24 am

Postby Departed Member » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:14 am

ChristopherJ wrote: For those who wear kilts and do not like the name of Skirt Café, I'd just like to ask - what is the difference between a skirt and a kilt? <whistles in a fake innocent sort of way . . > :twisted:


Well, it was enough to lose a good number of regular contributers, unfortunately! I think one of the fears was that the "Skirt Café" title would attract blokes looking for scantily clad ladies, rather than its real purpose. Activity is very 'slow' now, compared to the "Tom's Café" days. Agreed, there were less choices, until a host of "Kilt" forums sprang up. Now you know, and I know, that a Kilt is very definitely a skirt, but a skirt is not necessarily a Kilt! However, reading posts on sites such as "X Marks", it's apparent that there are an appreciable number of blokes who are very insecure with that idea. There were periodic snide comments about "Tom's Café" being little more than a TV site. Goddness knows what they'd have to say about the current title!

Blokes, curious (or active!) about the 'Men in Skirts' thing, are, sad to say, unlikely to go looking for information/involvement with the present title. Most have probably arrived by looking up just that, 'Men in Skirts'. That how I discovered "Tom's", quite a number of years ago. It stuck fairly rigidly to the "Men should have the right to wear un-bifurcated clothing" approach - which is why it became so successful. Most of the "Fashion Freedom" enthusiasts eventually took off to "Chris's Atrium" (after the infamous Freestyler/Braveheart 'wars'!!!! :o ), although IMFF probably caters better for their interests, and certainly covers items that 'ruffle feathers' here!

"Tom's" was very 'Kilt-friendly', but the change in title seemed to panic a substantial number into departing. Some of us have tried to regenerate Kilt interest (even though I tend to regard Kilts as 'Winter-wear'! :D ), but we're not doing too well, are we? I'm fully convinced the current title has become our 'albatross'......... :(
Departed Member
 

Postby Bob » Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:43 am

A Google search for "men in skirts" does not turn up Skirt Cafe. Nor does "Fashion Freedom". That is a problem, I suppose... Does anyone have experience with getting sites into Google? That could be part of the slowness in activity we're experience.

SPAM has been another problem --- we went through a period of months with very little effective user registration. I knew that would eventually kill the board, and that is one reason I switched to phpBB. Now, new users usually get validated within 24 hours. We've already gotten a number of new users since the change, and I expect more will be coming along as I add additional user-friendly features.

Most of the kilt-only folks left Tom's Cafe in the time after Tom died and before I inherited the Cafe. There was always simmering internal conflict at Tom's Cafe, and the arrival of XMarks provided a place to go for Cafe members who never felt comfortable "mixing" with guys who wear skirts too.

I have sought to continue Tom's legacy of inclusivity and tolerance of others --- in fact, the board was originally born out of the intolerance experienced on the old alt.fashion USENET newsgroup. But it became clear in the old days that not everyone wants to live in a tolerant community. That disappoints me, but I am not going to build intolerance into the community to please them.

In any case, the idea of "gender honesty" --- i.e. calling yourself a man no matter what you are wearing --- was the key to finally putting the "braveheart vs. freestyle" and "can men wear tights" issues behind us. I believe that we have grown as a community in some very substantive ways, and I am proud of it.

Part of my philosophy has not necessarily been to try to build the biggest community possible, but to stake Skirt Cafe in a position that no one else was taking --- generally somewhere between the Atrium and XMarks. That way it can develop its own community character independently of the other boards, and not be seen as being in competition with them.

Frankly, I don't really care what snide remarks people make about us at XMarks. I think the mission statement at the top has made it clear that this is not a tranny forum --- at least that is clear to the trannys, who have ceased to register after I put up the mission statement. I imagine that XMarks members can figure that out too.
Bob
Barista Emeritus
 
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:31 pm
Location: New England

Postby SkirtDude » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:20 am

Deleted.
Last edited by SkirtDude on Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SkirtDude
 

Postby beverlonian » Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:51 am

[quote="ChristopherJ"]

For those who wear kilts and do not like the name of Skirt Café, I'd just like to ask - what is the difference between a skirt and a kilt?

quote]

Fundamentally there is no difference - it is the perception by the general public - Skirts are feminine, Kilts are masculine.
Joe

There are many ways to get from A to B. It's not the destination, it's the journey that counts.
User avatar
beverlonian
Member
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:32 pm
Location: Beverley, England

RE Google search

Postby knickerless » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:01 pm

Re the Google search that Bob asked about. Try putting Men in skirts or shirts for men or fashion freedom in the heading somewhere. I don't think it is a case of getting things put in Google - just have the phrase you want it to pick up in your main page.


Nick
User avatar
knickerless
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 284
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:59 am
Location: england

Postby crfriend » Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:03 pm

beverlonian wrote:Fundamentally there is no difference [between skirts and kilts] - it is the perception by the general public - Skirts are feminine, Kilts are masculine.


I managed to join this forum after the worst of the "braveheart vs. freestyler" brouhaha was behind us, but have always taken the very pragmatic approach that a kilt is a simply highly specialised form of skirt -- so specialised, in fact, that the distinction may as well be made to avoid unnecessarily ruffling the feathers of kilt-wearers. The degree of specialisation is almost that of the difference between a bridal-gown and a knockabout jumper -- and, until recently, kilts have been pretty much relegated to formal-matters only, at least here in the US.

As far as the name "Skirt Cafe" goes, I voted for that when we needed to pick a new name for what was once "Tom's Cafe". The notion of "Cafe" was (and remains) a nice one -- a place where one can settle in for some interesting discussion and a virtual cuppa -- and I didn't like the thought of losing that. As a pragmatist (see above), I also thought that it pretty well cut to the chase and spoke to what we here are as a community -- in no respect was it intended, even obliquely, as a slap at the kilt-only crowd.

Bob's policy of "gender honesty", I think, has gone a long way towards keeping the forum on the "up and up" and focussed on men who wear skirted garments, kilts included, as men and not as something that they're not.

If the folks over at X-Marks dismiss the "Skirt Cafe" as a "tranny board" (what does wearing a skirt have to do with transmissions?), then that's their prerogative and it says more about them than us. Insecurity runs rampant amongst blokes, and it takes one heck of a lot of confidence in one's self to even contemplate stepping out in public in anything different than one's father, or his father before him, wore. The dichotomy bothers me, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. The "breeze between the knees" more than puts pay to the notions of yesterday's rigid compliance.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
 
Posts: 10580
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)

Postby ChristopherJ » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:32 pm

Well - lots of really great posts (in my opinion) in response to my query about the difference between kilts and skirts. I particularly enjoyed reading Merlins' post - which was very informative.

I find this forum has a very relaxed attitude toward the kilt/skirt issue - and I like that. People here seem to concentrate on the similarities that bind us together - rather than the differences which could split us apart. To me, that is wonderful. I don't care if you wear a skirt, a kilt, a sarong or a goatskin tied around your waist . . . the main issue for me is that men should be able to wear whatever clothing they choose - within reasonable boundaries of decency etc.

A Google search for "men in skirts" does not turn up Skirt Cafe. Nor does "Fashion Freedom". That is a problem, I suppose... Does anyone have experience with getting sites into Google? That could be part of the slowness in activity we're experience.


This is important. Someone has already mentioned that Google partly ranks sites based on links from other sites etc. - so it is a good idea to make sure there are links pointing to Skirt cafe in all the main directories etc. - in particular, DMOZ, Yahoo and Google directories.

Apart from that, Google uses a complex algorithm to rank a site - based on key words or phrases appearing in:
    The page title (appears at top of browser)
    The meta description (is used by search engines to describe site)
    The meta keywords (Used by some search engines to rank site)
    The actual text of the page. (very important - used for ranking site)

(the front page or home page of the website is most important for this - but it helps if it is continued across all pages)

So Skirt cafe should have phrases such as "skirts" "kilts" "men" "men skirts" "skirts for men" etc. etc. in all of the above places. The phrases should be repeated 3 or 4 times in the actual page text. The first line of text in the page is VERY important in terms of ranking - key words need to be there - as well as elsewhere in the page.

Here's a site that I wrote for a friend - notice how the phases "bed" "breakfast" "accomodation" "lochranza" and "arran" are in the page title, meta description (use "view source" to see this) - and also in the page text.

http://www.castlekirk.co.uk/

Google UK search for ""bed breakfast lochranza" gets 2 results on the first page

"bed breakfast arran" only gets on the second page (bummer!)

You get the idea . . .

This is not a plug for the place - although it's a great B&B!!!
It's never too late to have a happy childhood . . .
ChristopherJ
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 427
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:24 am

PreviousNext

Return to Changes at the Cafe

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest