Mission Statement and Who are We?

Discuss recent changes, make suggestions, etc.

Should we adopt this mission statement on the homepage?

Yes --- with possible minor modifications
94
57%
No, it is on the wrong track.
70
43%
 
Total votes: 164

hiker
Active Member
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:23 am

Post by hiker »

isobar wrote:On the subject of naming, I think it's supremely unsubtle to use the word 'skirt' in the cafe's title. The aesthetic of understatement is something Tom's Cafe had, and I think the new title is a step away from this. Whether it will attract 'the wrong crowd' is irrelevant - we're either for freedom or we're not, and deterring membership by stealth seems as contrary to that as would be calling the forum 'men in skirts (BUT NOT TRANSVESTITES) cafe'.
maybe the "MUG cafe" better reflects our intent?
isobar
Active Member
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:41 pm
Location: England

Post by isobar »

hiker wrote:maybe the "MUG cafe" better reflects our intent?
No, for my money the term 'MUG' is mere obfuscating nonsense.
Dom
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14431
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

On subtlety.

Post by crfriend »

isobar wrote:All right. Personally I'm not big on 'mission statements', and as others have commented it sounds uncomfortably formal [....]
That's part and parcel of "mission statements". They're supposed to boil down everything about the organisation or society they represent to the bare essentials, and that, by nature, frequently sounds bombastic. There's really no way around it.
isobar wrote:On the subject of naming, I think it's supremely unsubtle to use the word 'skirt' in the cafe's title.
There comes a time where subtlety becomes useless because it's not understood, nor appreciated, by the audience. Was Groucho Marx subtle? George Carlin? I think the time to ratchet the intensity up is upon us. The inane thing about this line of reasoning is that "skirt" is just a word -- that's it -- a word. It has no connotations of femininity or masculinity (were skirts covering tyres on some '50s-styled cars masculine or feminine?) whatsoever; in some instances, it's used as a verb!

Bonus question for our members who speak more than english: "What's the gender of the term for a skirted garment in French, Spanish, or Italian?" I believe all of those force nouns to be "masculine" or "feminine"; German, if I recall correctly, has a "neuter" gender. In English, all nouns are neuter.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
Bob
Barista Emeritus
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:31 pm
Location: New England

Post by Bob »

We could call it "Skilt Cafe", I suppose. "Skilt" is not quite as obfuscating as MUG, but more like "spork" (or "skort") ;-).

From The Spork Page:

Spork, you are not a fork
I knew too soon you were not a spoon
You are neither, and you are both
Spork, that's why I love you

--------------

I think we need a mission statement; it allows first-time visitors to gain a basic understanding of what this board is about without spending hours reading the posts.
isobar
Active Member
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:41 pm
Location: England

Post by isobar »

crfriend wrote:It has no connotations of femininity or masculinity
If 'skirt' had no connotations of femininity we wouldn't be having this discussion. (And I imagine this forum wouldn't exist!)
Dom
User avatar
Charlie
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:52 pm
Location: Somerset, England

Post by Charlie »

Bob wrote:I think we need a mission statement; it allows first-time visitors to gain a basic understanding of what this board is about without spending hours reading the posts.
I agree. Men wearing skirts and still being recognised as men isn't mainstream (yet!) and to many will come as a new concept in men's fashion. Anyone wandering into the cafe need a quick introduction into what is going on. At present there is nothing to tell them what the site is about, unlike the original Tom's or IMFF.

Charlie
If I want to dress like a woman, I'll wear jeans.
iain
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 468
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 6:29 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by iain »

and I guess part of what we do is de-feminising the word "skirt" in people's minds. so if "skirt cafe" sounds too feminine or offensive to one's ears, it proves the point even more: that the word needs to be regained by the male population.
The only thing man cannot endure is meaninglessness.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14431
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Masculininity and Femininity - a novella in one (in)seamless

Post by crfriend »

isobar wrote:If 'skirt' had no connotations of femininity we wouldn't be having this discussion. (And I imagine this forum wouldn't exist!)
What I was referring to is the fact that the word, standing on its own, has no connotations of masculinity or femininity -- it's how we as English-speakers use it, and the context in which we use it.

One sees skirts all over the place on a daily basis -- and quite likely more often on objects than on women. Skirts show up as baffles around machinery; they form joining sections on rockets; they cover the fronts of desks. Are these constructs masculine or feminine? I don't think so. It's only when it comes to clothing that the "gender" of the word comes into play and is ultimately meaningless because English does not have a gender-based grammar like, say, French does.

So, is it masculine or femine? Do you feel degraded or insulted when somebody says, "Nice skirt!" to you? The "femininity" is in our minds.

The coming anecdote may belong more in the "What did you wear 'out and about' today" thread, but yesterday I had on a white dress shirt and my cranberry calf-length skirt -- and I got noticed for it. The "stage" for this was a rather, shall we say, "testosterone rich" part of Providence with a large Hispanic population on the day of a large flea market. I'd spent the better part of the day working on some old computers and after that a bunch of wandered off for dinner. The guy who noticed me was a big, very macho-looking chap; I noticed that he'd caught a look at me, and we locked eyes. I was expecting something possibly unpleasant, but was instead pleased when he waved, pointed, and commented, "I like your skirt! You look cool!". I smiled, politely thanked him, and went on my way. Notice he called it as a skirt -- and did so in a friendly non-demeaning manner; there were smiles all 'round and that's not something you see if there's going to be trouble or if somebody is insulting you.

My conclusion on the matter: Skirt-wearing by men, in this very macho chap's opinion and in a very macho neighbourhood is OK. Cool, even (which I was -- he was wearing denim and looked uncomfortable; I breezed by in a lightweight skirt and rolled-up sleeves and clearly looked comfortable).
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14431
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

The torturing of words....

Post by crfriend »

Bob wrote:We could call it "Skilt Cafe", I suppose.
That reminds me too much of "spilt milk". :D "Oh, no! I spilt milk on my skilt."
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
AMM
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 841
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:01 pm
Location: Thanks for all the fish!

Post by AMM »

  1. I agree with the essence of this mission statement.
  2. It's a bit verbose. As I see it, the two elements that define our community are:
    1. A desire to gain acceptance for clothing choices that are currently considered odd or unacceptable for men, especially kilts, skirts, and other "MUG"s.
    2. We are not men trying to pass as women. (We include men passing as men and women passing as women. The other options, e.g., furry little creatures passing as scaley reptiles, have not come up yet :) .)
  3. It may not be clear to all readers that by "cross-dressing" you mean "men trying to pass as women"
    For many people, the idea of a man in a skirt is, by definition, "cross-dressing."
  4. I am very glad for the absence of significant numbers of "men pretending to be women".

    I tried for a while to post to a cross-dressing group, and found very little understanding for my point of view there. They tended to assume that I was in denial of my transgendered nature, and I thought that most of them were acting out a parody of society's definition of "feminine" in order to avoid facing up to how inhuman both definitions really are.

    I've never seen such a hostile reaction to the word "feminist" as in that cross-dressing group!
-- AMM
Thanks for all the fish.
binx
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 383
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:20 am
Location: Missouri

Post by binx »

IMO the mission statement of less than 100 words is succinct enough, and perhaps incorporating some of the suggested changes would help to clarify. We are men in kilts AND skirts; so Skirt Cafe is appropriate. Nail polish, hosiery, and makeup can all fall under the Other Stuff part of the forum.

binx
User avatar
Since1982
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 3449
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:13 pm
Location: My BUTT is Living in the USA, and sitting on the tip of the Sky Needle, Ow Ow Ow!!. Get the POINT?

Other names

Post by Since1982 »

Bob wrote:We could call it "Skilt Cafe", I suppose. "Skilt" is not quite as obfuscating as MUG, but more like "spork" (or "skort") ;-).
Then again there's a similar word? for the feeling you get after eating too much ....>>> Blort! When speaking this word? it's good to roll the B with your lips. Like BBBBBBBBBBlort!
The ? after the word word infers that Blort isn't really a word at all. Just a noise related to a belch or burp but more distinct. :)
I had to remove this signature as it was being used on Twitter. This is my OPINION, you NEEDN'T AGREE.

Story of Life, Perspire, Expire, Funeral Pyre!
I've been skirted part time since 1972 and full time since 2005. http://skirts4men.myfreeforum.org/
skirttron
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 226
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 7:39 pm

Post by skirttron »

Just as wearing a skirt does not necessarily imply cross-dressing, for similar reasons, neither does the use of makeup or nail varnish (enamel). I am OK with the sentiment that the room should not be classified as cross-dressing or trans-gender or taken over for those purposes, but would prefer it to be made clearer that clothes and the use of makeup should be seen as largely gender-neutral, just as T-Shirts and Jeans are seen for women.
User avatar
Skirt Chaser
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 698
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:28 pm
Location: North America

Post by Skirt Chaser »

Skirt Cafe is an on-line community dedicated to exploring, promoting and advocating for men's fashion freedom --- an expansion of fashion choices beyond those commonly available for men to include kilts, skirts and other garmets. We recognize and applaud a diversity in terms of fashions our members feel comfortable wearing, and we do not a priori exclude any potential fashion choices. We encourage continuing dialog on gender and masculinity in the context of fashion freedom for men.

We are not a cross-dressing or transvestite community, and we do not use women's names (except for our woman members).
All I would add is an additional clarifier to the last sentence about cross dressing. "We recognize that the clothes you wear do not change your identity as a man." When men arrive here for the first time the usual definitions of cross dressing and transvestite are what they know and may have labeled themselves even though there is no intent to be a woman behind it. I wouldn't want any man who would fit in perfectly run off by his own preconceptions. The emphasis that a man is always a man is really the heart of this board.

Quiet Mouse
taosit
Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:02 am
Location: Texas

Post by taosit »

This seems to be about as good a place to jump in as any. I like the idea of a statement of who we are and what we are about and suggest placing it just right of the logo (that might have been the idea all the time), so it should be fairly succinct. The editor in me worked on Bob’s statement and came up with this:

Skirt Cafe is an on-line community dedicated to exploring, promoting and advocating for men's fashion freedom --- an expansion of fashion choices beyond those commonly available for men to include kilts, skirts and other garments. We recognize a diversity of fashions our members feel comfortable wearing, and do not exclude any potential fashion choices. Continuing dialog on gender and masculinity is encouraged in the context of fashion freedom for men.

I have left out the negative definition of who Skirt Café isn’t because I felt the bold type and italics better described who we are. Further clarification could be contained in a “pre-registration” e-mail which would also contain the rules and guidelines, including gender honesty. Sort of a TOS agreement . . .There is a lot in Bob’s expansion of his thoughts that could be part of that as well, some perspective and grounding for the rationale of the group.

I’ve learned a lot from reading Skirt Café and Tom’s Café the past few weeks and am grateful to you all. If forums such as this had existed a lot earlier, many men might not have wasted so much time thinking of themselves as cross-dressers and dealing with all the societal baggage that entails. It’s something I’ve struggled with, often unsatisfactorily. I identify as transgendered. Not CD/TV and not TS (I am very surgery avoidant!), but somewhere else. My clothing preferences are informed in part by my identity and sense of style.

Another orientation of mine is Jungian and from the animus/anima I believe we are all transgendered to varying degrees, physiologically and psychologically. We all have testosterone and estrogen of varying levels at various times. My male and female aspects are both very strong and I express them both as best I can. There are many times I’ve been mistaken as female (not a bad thing, I take it as a compliment). The times it happens in face to face encounters puzzles me though since I do have a beard and am not trying to pass in any sense. I guess I present somewhat androgenously, enough of each to be recognizable elements, but not so blurred as in “It’s Pat” (I may have to explain that to the UK folks unfamiliar with old Saturday Night Live).

In Skirt Café context, I guess I might be a freestyler; I’m certainly not a Braveheart though I would love to have a Utilikilt Workman. My skirting preferences are sarongs and broomstick skirts (I may push boundaries and be a little outrageous at times, but I am still modest). Well, it's 1am and my wife says it is time to shut down and come to bed.

Thanks for bearing with me,
tao
Post Reply