Welcome to SkirtCafe --- change from Tom's

[iain]

I never really understood why the name Tom's had to change. I kinda felt like it was none of my business, and that Tom's name was being somehow dishonoured by us. I never met Tom, but I could tell he was a very spiritual character. I wouldn't like to think that anything which happened here wasn't along the lines of what he wanted, but maybe it's so.

It's nice that the site continued in some way, but I'm sorry that the cafe is no longer in his name. I think it gave people something to live up to.

It maybe isn't very PC of me to say so, and it would be better to thank everyone for everything whether I like it or not, but I contributed my own time into this forum over the years, and so I think I should be able to say it: this is just how I feel.

[Hamish]

I know I am/was an extremely infrequent visitor nowadays to Tom's Café, but I shall always remember that it was Tom's Café that gave me my first push-start what now seems like a lifetime ago. Even if I had not spent some time with Tom shortly before his untimely demise, I should still hold him in my heart with deep gratitude and affection. However..............

Yesterday, I was told of the changes being wrought here - especially with the change of name to "Skirt Café"; I am sorry, but I think this is a massive mistake. It has been the significant change in 'atmosphere' here in the past year or two that has kept me away - I mean no disrespect to you personally, Noodles. You have done a marvellous job in keeping Tom's Café up and running, but the clientele has changed, driving away a huge number of regulars such as myself. With this change of name, I can only see this process accelerating.

If the style and atmosphere of Tom's Café of say, six years ago, could return I'd be back in a flash but, as things are, I shall not be visiting "Skirt Café" in the future.

You are obviously moving on, and so I wish you everything you wish yourself, and I reiterate my expression of thanks to you for all that you have done in the good name of Tom's Café.

[Since1982]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the name Bravehearts somewhat infer Kilts only? Like in the movie Braveheart? My last name is Fraser, a well respected highland clan/tartan but I've never worn a kilt nor do I expect to. I have physical problems that preclude me from wearing loose garments that allowed my legs to spread open like a kilt might. That's why I gave up trousers completely to wear straight skirts. My hip and lower back will not give me any peace if I allow my legs to spread when I'm sitting. Because of my hanging panniculus I can't hold my knees together when sitting unless the panniculus stays on top of my lap. A straight skirt or wrap skirt that has no pleats or gores takes care of this for me.

On the other hand, I always thought this site was also about fashion freedom too. The right of a man to wear unbifurcated garments whether it was a kilt, skirt or jumper. Being told that any piece of cloth that is used primarily to cover our private areas in a modest way is either feminine or masculine to me is silly. Cloth is cloth just as an animal skin was used before the invention of cloth.

Fashions change over time. There are always those who cannot accept change. Things DO change though and will continue until the end of time.

For those that don't know what a panniculus is: It's an overlarge stomach after weight has been lost leaving behind a heavy section of skin that won't just "go away on it's own" because of my age. So it needs to be either on top of my lap when sitting or if it is allowed to fall between my legs I will need many pills I do not now need. Like Percodan, Loricet, etc. Heavy duty pain pills. I hope I made my feelings clear. I also voted for keeping Tom's name (I never met him, but the look in his face in pictures made me think he was a very fine man)but will gladly go along with the majority.

[iain]

but for some reason, I never understood why the name had to change. I don't know, maybe I missed that part of it. I remember MJB saying something like, change to what, and why?

I'd still like to know but please make it simple and direct, I hate being confused by words which seem to say opposing things at the same time.

[crfriend]

I know I am/was an extremely infrequent visitor nowadays to Tom's Café

And you're missed, I'll have you know.

Yesterday, I was told of the changes being wrought here - especially with the change of name to "Skirt Café"; I am sorry, but I think this is a massive mistake.

Whilst change can be, and usually is, painful, the "community" here is the same as it's been for the past couple of years. The change came about because of constraints upon our "Server Boss Emeritus", not because of any sea change in the clientele. Noodles did a splendid job of keeping things running in Tom's absense, and I applaud him for it. But the change in the venue's name does not indicate a sea change in the outlook of our community -- quite the opposite: I cannot find Bob's (our new "Server Boss") exact quote, but this is most emphatically not a place for crossdressers, transvestites, or what-have-you; it's a place for blokes who like to wear unbifurcated garments. Whether they're kilts, sarongs, sulus, or out-and-out from-the-ladies-department skirts. They're all MUGs, 'cause a UG on a bloke is a MUG.

If the style and atmosphere of Tom's Café of say, six years ago, could return I'd be back in a flash but, as things are, I shall not be visiting "Skirt Café" in the future.

That's sad, because I believe that your thoughts, posts, and yes, pictures added a great deal to this community. It'd be sad to see you walk away. If walk away you do, we'll (at least I) miss you, but the community will survive; they have an odd way of doing that. Please reconsider.

[Bravehearts.us]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the name Bravehearts somewhat infer Kilts only? Like in the movie Braveheart? My last name is Fraser, a well respected highland clan/tartan but I've never worn a kilt nor do I expect to. I have physical problems that preclude me from wearing loose garments that allowed my legs to spread open like a kilt might. That's why I gave up trousers completely to wear straight skirts. My hip and lower back will not give me any peace if I allow my legs to spread when I'm sitting. Because of my hanging panniculus I can't hold my knees together when sitting unless the panniculus stays on top of my lap. A straight skirt or wrap skirt that has no pleats or gores takes care of this for me.

On the other hand, I always thought this site was also about fashion freedom too. The right of a man to wear unbifurcated garments whether it was a kilt, skirt or jumper. Being told that any piece of cloth that is used primarily to cover our private areas in a modest way is either feminine or masculine to me is silly. Cloth is cloth just as an animal skin was used before the invention of cloth.

Fashions change over time. There are always those who cannot accept change. Things DO change though and will continue until the end of time.

For those that don't know what a panniculus is: It's an overlarge stomach after weight has been lost leaving behind a heavy section of skin that won't just "go away on it's own" because of my age. So it needs to be either on top of my lap when sitting or if it is allowed to fall between my legs I will need many pills I do not now need. Like Percodan, Loricet, etc. Heavy duty pain pills. I hope I made my feelings clear. I also voted for keeping Tom's name (I never met him, but the look in his face in pictures made me think he was a very fine man)but will gladly go along with the majority.

Skip,
I’m a little confused about your post. I get the impression you felt defensive or took offense at it where none was intended. I’m all for male freedom which you can read about here…http://www.bravehearts.us/about%20brvhrts.htm
We don’t need to give reasons why we as males wear UGs…we want to. It’s a choice for whatever reason, be it health, fashion, etc. I don’t feel it has to be justified to anyone! All I was saying is the word “skirt” to most people brings the image of “woman”. Many men will not be associated with that word. Therefore the name may chase some away. Tom’s idea was to attract as many as possible into the Café by staying away from any name except MUG. I believe that is the best path to go.
I have to agree with you that cloth is neither masculine nor feminine but in the general public the color and print is and the garments do become male or female garments.
As far as bravehearts goes: Bravehearts is a movie, a book, a band, a Christian Website, a search site and a Website against trouser tyranny (as we all know).
I think many people, if not most, think of the movie when they hear the name bravehearts and because of that, probably the first image that comes to mind is the kilt and Mel Gibson’s painted face. But as I explain on the http://www.bravehearts.us site, I consider any man wearing a MUG a brave hearted soul. He is a Braveheart to me.
Lar

[me012247]

... All I was saying is the word “skirt” to most people brings the image of “woman”. Many men will not be associated with that word. Therefore the name may chase some away. Tom’s idea was to attract as many as possible into the Café by staying away from any name except MUG. I believe that is the best path to go.

Very well said..

[crfriend]

[...] I don’t feel [what we wear] has to be justified to anyone!

Precisely, and well said.

All I was saying is the word “skirt” to most people brings the image of “woman”. Many men will not be associated with that word. Therefore the name may chase some away.

But, if there isn't some work put in to associate the two then they'll forever stay distinct and separate. Sadly, there's no way to ease the world into accepting skirts on men; I believe it's a pretty binary thing -- either people do accept the notion of the words "man" and "skirt" in the same sentence, used in a non-derisive manner, or they don't. Perhaps a little "in your face" action is called for at this point?

I don't believe the new name for the Cafe was a blunder, and this is stirring discussion on the topic. After all, "skirt" is just a word -- a blanket term for ALL "unbifurcated" garments (it enrages many in the kilts-only crowd, but that may be just a hint of insecurity on their part). I think "MUG Cafe" would have been silly. How about "Bob's Diner"?

[Bravehearts.us]

Really??? Then how come the original logo said "Men in Kilts and Skirts" I looked and looked and didn't see the term MUG anywhere on the logo. Please tell me where it is and I'll look there. I saw it in other areas, but not on the conspicious logo. :shake:

And how do you know for sure what Tom's original idea was? Did he explain it clearly to you personally when he was still alive? I don't think anyone could read his mind, you included. :shake:

Seems to me we're getting lots of new members already, if you're trying, in this slightly disorganized period to turn this place into another "kilts only" site, I think that would be disrespecting Tom's legacy indeed.

Skip,
I wouldn’t want to see this message board become a “kilts only” spot any more than I would want to see it become a “men’s only”, “jeans only”, “cross-dressing only” place. It would limit the exchange of creative thoughts and ideas because it would be stuck in that vein. I wouldn’t want to see it get stuck in any vein because it would become stagnant. I don’t understand where you would get the idea that I would want to see it become a kilts only site unless it's because of the name of my Website.
Please don’t presume to know my relationship with Tom. I didn’t have to try and read his mind. We were very close and when I started to organize the MSM event in New York, which everyone was welcome to, we became even closer because he joined me and we worked together and were on the phone with each other every other day. But it was his illness that brought us about as close as two people could be. There were many nights he called me at 3AM when he woke up in a panic with the realization that he was going to die. (Something that anyone would face in that horrible position). We talked for hours until he calmed down. What was said will go to my grave with me because it’s too sensitive and personal for me to repeat. I would never break that trust with anyone who confided in me and especially wouldn’t do it to my friend. How humiliating for anyone to have to go through what he went through. But he felt safe exposing his vulnerabilities to me and I felt just as safe with him in the same way. You don’t do that with a person unless you are close and have developed a huge level of trust. I gave him the idea for the “locations” and “Circle of Friends” for the Café. He did all the work of making that happen.
But it wasn’t what we did together as much as it was how we did it…with mutual respect and admiration even when we disagreed. I strive to have that with everyone and I would like to have it with you. Keeping that in mind when we make our posts will be a way to pay the highest tribute to a man many of us came to know and love.
Lar

[Bravehearts.us]

Precisely, and well said.



But, if there isn't some work put in to associate the two then they'll forever stay distinct and separate. Sadly, there's no way to ease the world into accepting skirts on men; I believe it's a pretty binary thing -- either people do accept the notion of the words "man" and "skirt" in the same sentence, used in a non-derisive manner, or they don't. Perhaps a little "in your face" action is called for at this point?

I don't believe the new name for the Cafe was a blunder, and this is stirring discussion on the topic. After all, "skirt" is just a word -- a blanket term for ALL "unbifurcated" garments (it enrages many in the kilts-only crowd, but that may be just a hint of insecurity on their part). I think "MUG Cafe" would have been silly. How about "Bob's Diner"?

I have to agree with just about everything you said. Without pushing the boundaries, progress would be slow and not as much would get accomplished. The unfortunate thing is that the dreamers and those who push the boundaries are the first to do things, so, sadly, they are the ones who pay the biggest price for the progress. The rest get to enjoy, without sacrifice, the work the dreamers have done. We can’t live without the dreamers because it’s their dreams that eventually bring about the reality. The Dreamers… http://www.bravehearts.us/about%20brvhrts.htm
Lar

[Since1982]

Let me get clear on this. You're inferring that YOUR site is the only site with dreamers???? I think not.

[Bravehearts.us]

Let me get clear on this. You're inferring that YOUR site is the only site with dreamers???? I think not.

No, I’m not.
Lar

[crfriend]

Without pushing the boundaries, progress would be slow and not as much would get accomplished. The unfortunate thing is that the dreamers and those who push the boundaries are the first to do things, so, sadly, they are the ones who pay the biggest price for the progress.

Societies, as a whole, tend to accept change at a glacial pace, if even that fast. Without a hard push now and then, nothing would change. Those pushes can come in many forms, and, yes, some are pretty heavily opposed by some, if not many, members of the society that's undergoing those changes. This is not, on a whole, particularly bad -- societies function best with things they're comfortable with; however, the sad counterpoint to this is that sometimes societies oppose things that will ultimately be of benefit without looking far enough ahead to see that benefit.

The rest get to enjoy, without sacrifice, the work the dreamers have done. We can’t live without the dreamers because it’s their dreams that eventually bring about the reality.

This is part and parcel of the game. Those on the leading edge always receive more wind and abuse than those on the trailling edge. If you want to be up front, expect wind and resistance; but without "leading edges" things like aeroplanes would not fly, and I'd much rather be a slat than a flap.

[iain]

I agree entirely, and I think it's interesting how the aspiration to live up to Tom's name has helped one individual here in rising above a level of pointless argument.

To me this shows how the spirituality of one man can inspire others. It's another reason why I hope this site always remains linked with Tom's name somehow, since it's clear that he inspires people even today. Because of that, it's not just any cafe, it's still Tom's cafe. Someone may have taken the name away from us, but the spirit is still there.

[Steven]

I'm among some of the people that came forward to keep Tom's Cafe going.

One of the stipulations I had if I were to take it over was to keep the name, in doing this I knew a great deal of trust would have needed to exist in doing so. To change the name would be like someone changing the name of the color red, everything it stood for, emotions, passions, and thoughts, about red would now have to be focused to another new unknown name. Skirt Cafe may thrive just as Tom's Cafe did, only it's patrons and time will tell.

I didn't find out about Noodles decision until Tom's Cafe was closed and this forum was brought online and didn't hear from him until the day after it was done.

Unfortunately for me, I had fashion freedom before, during, and after my participation in Tom's Cafe.

Unfortunately also you will not see me posting often as I've moved on in how I am involved in male equality.

And I already don't post much, and most likely will be posting less as there are many people I have had the pleasure of confronting, as such, some of these people now monitor the places I post too see what I am doing.

I will still visit every now and then, and who knows, maybe become more involved in places such as this again.

Congratulations to Bob for running the new forum, and kudos to Noodles for running Tom's Cafe till now.

Steven