Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Discuss recent changes, make suggestions, etc.

Should we split the board and create FreestyleCafe?

yes --- create FreestyleCafe for a more "femme" approach to fashion freedom, and leave SkirtCafe as a place for men's fashion.
7
23%
no --- let's just all get along, the diversity is beneifical.
23
77%
 
Total votes : 30

Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby alexthebird » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:00 pm

I think that some of then tension is caused by differences in what we expect from the cafe, and I wonder if that isn't something we ought to think about a bit.

Is the cafe a refuge? A sanctuary where like minded people can safely withdraw from the world and provide fellowship and support?

Or is the cafe a place to engage the wider world, test ideas, explore our limits, support newbies, and offer outreach?

PS - I can't quite figure out how to vote in this thread. Am I missing something really obvious?
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Milfmog » Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:29 pm

Deciding how to vote in this poll was easy; I'd much rather we all got along with a broad range of folks here all bringing their own points of view to the café and respecting those of others.

The trouble is that the noise here is getting deafening and conversation has suffered because of it. I think there is a real danger that, if we don't sort ourselves out fairly quickly, we may find we have a split in the board whether we want it or not.

Please, can we all try to sit quietly for a while and then see if can converse normally because if not I fear that I will not be alone in wondering whether there is a nice, peaceful, ice cream parlour down the road...

Have fun,


Ian.
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Since1982 » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:07 am

Even though the vote was private as to who voted what way, I'm coming out and saying that I, and after much musings and afterthoughts would change it back if it was possible to do so, did vote for a split. At the time I voted, I didn't really understand what a split would mean. I have thought it over deeply and have decided that I am, right here, RE-VOTING against any splits of any kind. There are a few members that I don't agree with, but can ignore, and as long as this site doesn't go completely to CD,TV,TS and other very femme leanings, I'll stay with it as a conglomerate of different views and dressing styles. I really would like to see about 15 members that don't visit anymore because of that fear come back, but they will just have to make their own decisions on that. I'm staying with the SkirtCafe and many sub-sections. 8) :thewave:
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby HockeySkirt » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:06 pm

I haven't decided how to vote yet, but offer some opinions. I have thought, from my personal perspective, as to what is 'too femme' for me.

Would I ask friends/family to visit SkirtCafe? : When asked about my kilt wearing, I have pointed friends/family towards XMarksTheScot, but I'd not point them to SkirtCafe. That decision is simply as I'd not be confident that a casual reader would conclude that my skirt wearing was perfectly normal from reading SkirtCafe, and 'femme' topics are part of the problem, whereas X-Marks successfully portrays itself a bunch of regular guys, doing normal stuff.

That said, often time the problem is not topics that discuss 'femme' clothing items, but the phrasing of many points with reference to femme or transgender terminology. A simple example is that many members point out that they used to be cross dressers, but then realised they really just like to wear skirts -- getting a friend/family member to read those intros has them thinking of whether I am/was a cross dresser, and it hurts my attempts to prove it's all quite normal, rather than aides it.

Do *I* feel more 'normal' reading SkirtCafe? : When I first started visiting these various forums around 2001/2002, I thought my feelings made me very odd. Reading the forums made me feel I was not alone, but it was reading about full-time heavyweights such as Hamish that boosted my confidence to get out and wear kilts and skirts -- he and others made it seem so normal and natural. The current balance of topics on SkirtCafe would not, I feel, have given me the same confidence that I got from Tom's Cafe in 2002. It was not that 'femme' topics were never discussed -- I recall the first page of the Tom's Cafe archive had an explicit discussion about whether it was ok to talk about skirts and nail varnish, and Tom's chiming in that nail varnish was on topic. The difference was the balance of topics. The volume on SkirtCafe is so much lower today than 2002-03 that one person's obsessions can seem to dominate.

Braveheart vs Freestylers -- was WPG right? : WPG started the braveheart vs freestyler debate (2001-ish I recall?). WPG's original point was often lost. People misunderstood him as saying that he did not agree with people wearing anything other than masculine kilts. It wasn't his point. His point was that acceptance was damaged by mixing a simple kilt/skirt message, with more extreme fashion freedom -- and many of us care about acceptance. It triggered enormous arguments. It's interesting to see what happened with X-Marks versus WPG's prediction. X-Marks started in 2004, and though formed independently, it was in reality a branch of Tom's Cafe kilt content -- It had Tom's Cafe format (vBulletin), its rules (play nice, no religion, no politics), and its core posters were ex-Tom's Cafe posters (Colin, Blue, Bubba, Graham, Hamish, etc). What is interesting is that once the freestyle (or 'femme') aspects were removed, kilt discussions exploded in size and activity. Kilt makers and kilt retailers signed up. Though it was not obvious prior to 2004, it's became clear that the femme/freestyle aspects of Tom's Cafe held the kilt forums back ,*IF* membership size and activity is considered progress.

Do I feel SkirtCafe is too 'femme'? : Given what I said above, it would seem the answer was a simple 'yes', but it's not. I like to wear masculine skirts, which some kilt wearers consider more femme than kilts. Sometimes I like to wear pantyhose under kilts/skirts, which some non-pantyhose wearers consider 'femme'. I consider nail varnish and panties too femme for my taste, but who am I to judge?

Some of my initial experiences with skirts bordered on cross-dressing. Decades ago I was encouraged to go to a costume party dressed as a school girl, and played field hockey wearing the official female skirted uniform for a charity fun event. The clothing was wonderful, but it took these online forums to sort out my thoughts afterwards -- I am not a cross-dresser, I just like skirts and hosiery. I mention this, as being able to discuss the 'femme' background to why we are here can be valuable information.

Bottom line is that I don't know how to vote here. I do feel that SkirtCafe will never been a strong force for acceptance whilst femme topics exist, but simultaneously defend the right of people to discuss those topics, and fully understand the need to discuss them -- why shouldn't SkirtCafe be that place?

I suspect there is a need in the community for a forum focused on masculine skirts (including kilts). Something unambiguously masculine enough that members will post more photos, or show it to friends and family. Something that brings the X-Marks level of acceptance and perceived normality of kilts to masculine skirts. I don't see that SkirtCafe has to be that place -- it can stay just as it is. But if such a place was to appear, and develop, it could significantly marginalize SkirtCafe in the same way X-Marks already marginalized SkirtCafe/Tom's Cafe (it took the majority of its pre-2004 members!).

At the end of the day, this is "Bob's Cafe" (and to a lesser extend "Bob & Carl's Cafe"). Any endeavor is going to be more successful if reflects the interests and desires of the owners. Do you guys wish it to be a all-inclusive debating forum and therapy stop, or a force for acceptance of men in skirts? I believe those two goals are exclusive. Both are good and honorable goals, and I'd support you in whatever decision you made.

My 2c worth.

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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Peter v » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:40 pm

HockeySkirt wrote:I haven't decided how to vote yet, but offer some opinions. I have thought, from my personal perspective, as to what is 'too femme' for me.

Would I ask friends/family to visit SkirtCafe? : When asked about my kilt wearing, I have pointed friends/family towards XMarksTheScot, but I'd not point them to SkirtCafe. That decision is simply as I'd not be confident that a casual reader would conclude that my skirt wearing was perfectly normal from reading SkirtCafe, and 'femme' topics are part of the problem, whereas X-Marks successfully portrays itself a bunch of regular guys, doing normal stuff.

That said, often time the problem is not topics that discuss 'femme' clothing items, but the phrasing of many points with reference to femme or transgender terminology. A simple example is that many members point out that they used to be cross dressers, but then realised they really just like to wear skirts -- getting a friend/family member to read those intros has them thinking of whether I am/was a cross dresser, and it hurts my attempts to prove it's all quite normal, rather than aides it.

Do *I* feel more 'normal' reading SkirtCafe? : When I first started visiting these various forums around 2001/2002, I thought my feelings made me very odd. Reading the forums made me feel I was not alone, but it was reading about full-time heavyweights such as Hamish that boosted my confidence to get out and wear kilts and skirts -- he and others made it seem so normal and natural. The current balance of topics on SkirtCafe would not, I feel, have given me the same confidence that I got from Tom's Cafe in 2002. It was not that 'femme' topics were never discussed -- I recall the first page of the Tom's Cafe archive had an explicit discussion about whether it was ok to talk about skirts and nail varnish, and Tom's chiming in that nail varnish was on topic. The difference was the balance of topics. The volume on SkirtCafe is so much lower today than 2002-03 that one person's obsessions can seem to dominate.

Braveheart vs Freestylers -- was WPG right? : WPG started the braveheart vs freestyler debate (2001-ish I recall?). WPG's original point was often lost. People misunderstood him as saying that he did not agree with people wearing anything other than masculine kilts. It wasn't his point. His point was that acceptance was damaged by mixing a simple kilt/skirt message, with more extreme fashion freedom -- and many of us care about acceptance. It triggered enormous arguments. It's interesting to see what happened with X-Marks versus WPG's prediction. X-Marks started in 2004, and though formed independently, it was in reality a branch of Tom's Cafe kilt content -- It had Tom's Cafe format (vBulletin), its rules (play nice, no religion, no politics), and its core posters were ex-Tom's Cafe posters (Colin, Blue, Bubba, Graham, Hamish, etc). What is interesting is that once the freestyle (or 'femme') aspects were removed, kilt discussions exploded in size and activity. Kilt makers and kilt retailers signed up. Though it was not obvious prior to 2004, it's became clear that the femme/freestyle aspects of Tom's Cafe held the kilt forums back ,*IF* membership size and activity is considered progress.

Do I feel SkirtCafe is too 'femme'? : Given what I said above, it would seem the answer was a simple 'yes', but it's not. I like to wear masculine skirts, which some kilt wearers consider more femme than kilts. Sometimes I like to wear pantyhose under kilts/skirts, which some non-pantyhose wearers consider 'femme'. I consider nail varnish and panties too femme for my taste, but who am I to judge?

Some of my initial experiences with skirts bordered on cross-dressing. Decades ago I was encouraged to go to a costume party dressed as a school girl, and played field hockey wearing the official female skirted uniform for a charity fun event. The clothing was wonderful, but it took these online forums to sort out my thoughts afterwards -- I am not a cross-dresser, I just like skirts and hosiery. I mention this, as being able to discuss the 'femme' background to why we are here can be valuable information.

Bottom line is that I don't know how to vote here. I do feel that SkirtCafe will never been a strong force for acceptance whilst femme topics exist, but simultaneously defend the right of people to discuss those topics, and fully understand the need to discuss them -- why shouldn't SkirtCafe be that place?

I suspect there is a need in the community for a forum focused on masculine skirts (including kilts). Something unambiguously masculine enough that members will post more photos, or show it to friends and family. Something that brings the X-Marks level of acceptance and perceived normality of kilts to masculine skirts. I don't see that SkirtCafe has to be that place -- it can stay just as it is. But if such a place was to appear, and develop, it could significantly marginalize SkirtCafe in the same way X-Marks already marginalized SkirtCafe/Tom's Cafe (it took the majority of its pre-2004 members!).

At the end of the day, this is "Bob's Cafe" (and to a lesser extend "Bob & Carl's Cafe"). Any endeavor is going to be more successful if reflects the interests and desires of the owners. Do you guys wish it to be a all-inclusive debating forum and therapy stop, or a force for acceptance of men in skirts? I believe those two goals are exclusive. Both are good and honorable goals, and I'd support you in whatever decision you made.

My 2c worth.

HockeySkirt



Reacting in general and to Hockeyskirt’s most interesting post.

Thank you Hockey shirt, with your input it can go both ways, although I would ask, what is
“or a force for acceptance of men in skirts?” Or what is in your opinion “men in skirts”? is that the same type of thing that (real) kilted men are? ( real meaning for the clarity men who conform to the true rules about wearing a kilt, as men who wear a kilt otherwise fall again into another group) :roll:

I think: By the way, men who ridicule other men wearing anything other than a skirt in the kilt like way, i.e. very “”Manly”” (beginning to hate that term, for want of any better name), they are in my view doing precisely what often “”normal”” men from “the public” do when is seen or spoken about any man in anything other than those damned pants, and which WE men in skirts in turn justly all deplore. The ridiculing, not the pants. :wink: Thus making them no better than the rest of the people who are discriminative and closed minded about practically everything. :?

I think: That is totally different to men who have other, differing, viewpoints and go into civilised discussion with other men (in skirts) to get to understand each other better, without having to concede to the other’s ways. :D

I think: To ACT AS IF men in anything other than the most manly skirted getups are a danger to them, be threatening, would be "acting precisely the same", "lowering themselves to the ways" as here in the Netherlands how some particularly foreign men act, most young men from Morocco, or with that background, but I am not 100% positive on that, and of course others, who are guilty of attacking verbally (like “HOMO!!”) and maybe even physically attacking any men they see in a skirt. Of which I have been victim of myself, of verbal insult.

I think: If there is no fear, for which there is no ground, then let us all behave as mature adults and have respectable discussions. ( by saying fear I would assume fear to it being detrimental to the cause :shock: :? "cause" for men in skirts.... :roll: which I assume is meaning the very marginal narrow area of men being "manly" ( :shock: that word) dressed in neutral skirts with regards to the whole scale of possibilitys of how men dress themselves in skirted garments.
( to prevent agresive reactions, I do just love all manners of MEN in skirts, of which I think men in neutral skirts is also very good and for nearly all very suitable. )

I think: The problem lies not with the forum but with your friends who cannot read what is written and are apparently very biased. People who are truly respectful, and are really interested IN YOU, will not start out placing your activities in the furthermost corner, the most negative in their vieuw, to start with. And would ask for a explanation of things as they see them, by which you can then easily explain YOUR situation. It is all too easy to put the blame for the short sightedness or discriminative vieuws of others not genuinely interested, to the forum. If it comes down to that, even if being on a very manly skirting forum, then they may even not accept any man wearing a skirt at all, even if there are thousands of forums with only the most neutral “manly” men in skirts there. :shock:

I think: Buy a mobile phone these days, what can you not do with it? That doesn’t mean that you WANT to use all options? Does it? Do your friends then say, “O you WANT to email, route plan, SMS, even photograph digitally, etc etc “ ? DO YOU CARE even if they say that? NO because you know all you want is to be able to call emergency services if it is needed.

I think: The same applies as I see it to the (our) forum (our being the best place to be for MEN, MM EE NN wearing skirted garments, as men, but in all forms, diversity.)

I think: People have to realise that fashion FREEDOM is the issue, not any one type / form of “dress” (not a dress as such) It is the not seeing of that very essential point that gives way to misunderstanding. Acceptance must be of freestyle wearing. That is the easiest way to see things as an onlooker. Otherwise the onlooker or the person whom we (some) “want” acceptance from :roll: will have to KNOW EVERY DAMNED type of skirted outfit in detail to be able only even to give it a name, not even mentioning if he or she would find that acceptable. That is Nigh impossible. But realising that men can and do wear skirted garments in many a varied way, “freestyling” for the public, is in my opinion the fastest, easiest way to get the “acceptance” that is appreciated. In all cases, the public will judge for themselves which aura you have on you, manly, feminine, whatever, even if you go in pants.

I think: It is their conception of what THAT means to them, and NOT only what you are wearing that matters. It is all too easy to think that if men only wear a neutral skirt and keep the rest as is, that you will then easily be “accepted” NOT. Not if the public has personal convictions of what is manly and what is anything else. You will still have to SHOW any other person who you are. Doing things any other way will only result in stopping with being different ALL TOGETHER.

I think: We, men, all men in skirts, should present ourselves as such, MEN wearing diverse forms of “dress” being nothing different to any other men, who I might say may be “disguised “ as ordinary men, but be truly anything else. If you are seen in an overall, who are you? If you are later seen in a skirt, WHO are YOU? No body else than the day you were born. That is the realisation that has to be brought about.

How do you see if a motorcycle rider is a Hell’s Angel or other like type of [i]person[/i]? By the bike he rides? By the leather jacket he is wearing? By his actions would be the best way.

I think: There is absolutely no reason to blame any amount of “other “ skirt wearing talk for the lack of input from the hard line macho (for want of a more true, friendly word) skirt wearers. If anything, there should be more active input from them as a reaction to their seemingly fears of becoming a minority on the forum. But that too is wrong, as every posting is one standing on it’s own. There is no judgment to which "sekt" that you belong. Every man gives HIS bit to the discussion. Is it that too not seen by some? Or am I too respectful and totally unbiased?
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby HockeySkirt » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:57 pm

Peter v wrote:I think: The problem lies not with the forum but with your friends who cannot read what is written and are apparently very biased.

Hello Peter,

I apologise but I cannot entirely understand what you are trying to say in most of your post, but will respond on this part (above) as it seems you might have misunderstood the intention of the remarks about my friends. My friends are, compared to the average, pretty open minded. They are not unusually "biased". In fact, I am quite lucky. They don't make a big deal about me wearing a kilt or skirt, beyond the usual good natured joking between friends. I don't blame them for having the same thoughts that the majority of people have when confronted with this topic -- I am quite able to explain the true nature of my motivations to them. The point is simply that I don't find SkirtCafe to be an asset when explaining skirt wearing to others, whereas X-Marks is an asset explaining kilt wearing. A male-skirt forum that stayed firmly on topic would be an asset.

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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Departed Member » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:02 pm

Hockey Skirt, you have mirrored my personal thoughts pretty well there, too. I've read so many "should do"s, "ought to"s and so much more dialogue telling us that our family, or our friends, or our colleagues are the ones with 'problems' or are prejudiced in some way, that I wonder where the 'real' world ended and 'fantasy' world began. Unfortunately, I have to live, and interact, in the 'real' world. I'd love to see things change, skirt-wise. They may do, over a not inconsiderable period of time.

The 'problem' as I see it, is the public perception of the nucleus of blokes who, "Want it all, and they want it now!", to paraphrase the song. I'm not prepared, not even in fact to consider, to accept that everyone else is either 'wrong', 'biased', 'negative', or any other such description when potentially confronted by the outright 'freestyler'. In other words, I would concur, especially noting how 'quiet' things have been here recently, those of us on the 'middle tracks' are indeed actually being 'held back' by the actions of the Zealots. I'm not saying they don't have a valid argument, mind. Just that their timing is, sadly, 'inappropriate', for the times we live in. I think, nay, I'm convinced, the need exists to persue separate agendas - for the time being. And I think both factions would then go on to prosper, as a result.

For those with a foot in both camps, well, it's not difficult to belong to more than one website, is it? We were nicely generating new Kilt interest, but this has certainly faltered (again?) due to folk being 'uncomfortable' with being, as they saw it, too close to those preaching "Freestyle Evangelism". Were (are) they 'wrong', 'biased' or 'negative'? Of course not! But too uncomfortable to stay? The out and out 'freestylers' on this forum have openly attacked the more 'right wing' members. They admit they don't care for 'masculine styled skirts', and have even declared Kilts as 'boring'! If that isn't an indication that we are approaching an untenable stalemate, I don't know what is!
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby crfriend » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:41 pm

Mod hat off; this is written from the perspective of me as an individual contributor.

As an aside, note that I split the evolving thread regarding my imaginary headgear off. Feel free to continue the fun there; jokes, insults, and general abuse are welcome as always in such a thread, but I didn't want this one getting "contaminated".

HockeySkirt wrote:Bottom line is that I don't know how to vote here. I do feel that SkirtCafe will never been a strong force for acceptance whilst femme topics exist, but simultaneously defend the right of people to discuss those topics, and fully understand the need to discuss them -- why shouldn't SkirtCafe be that place?


Divided opinion is fine, and is acceptable. Easy decisions are seldom interesting, and complex ones seldom easy.

In my opinion, it's not the discussion of "femme" topics per se, but rather the manner in which those topics are approached and how they're discussed. I'd like to see a Cafe that could include such topics, but articulate them in a manner in which the topics are put into the context of an entire coordinated look on the part of the man wearing a non-trousered outfit. There's too much focus on individual elements at the moment -- and this is to the detriment of working to portray workable, believeable, non-trousered looks on men. Discussion of nail-varnish outside a complete "look" is all well and good -- on a forum that specialises in that particular topic as a specialty. The same goes for legwear. I feel that if we're to be a force for getting non-trousered looks acceptable to the general public, we need to focus on putting together a complete believeable package that will communicate our intent to observers.

What do I mean when I use the term "believeable" in connection with non-trousered outfits? Here's my opinion on the matter: To be "believeable", an outfit should not look outlandish, it should not look like it was just hastily shoved together with no attention to detail, and it should convey a sense of who the wearer is. Note that this is not unbridled "fashion freedom"; unbridled anything tends to lead to chaos, and chaos into the realm of the absurd. As men in non-trousered clothing, we should not present ourselves as absurdities; we should be presenting as respectable members of the society around us and we should look the part, because in this case, the look is doing a whole lot of talking about us -- we must be aware of that, and we must exercise active positive control over that look. Also, as men wearing non-trousered outfits, we stand out in a crowd -- whether we like it or not -- hence it's critically important that any observer is positive that he sees a man in an "alternative" rig. At the first glance, too, because the second will be a quizzical glance, and the third derisive. What we wear says quite a lot about us; make that first glance one that lingers and goes, "Wow! That works!"

I suspect there is a need in the community for a forum focused on masculine skirts (including kilts). [...] I don't see that SkirtCafe has to be that place -- it can stay just as it is. But if such a place was to appear, and develop, it could significantly marginalize SkirtCafe in the same way X-Marks already marginalized SkirtCafe/Tom's Cafe (it took the majority of its pre-2004 members!).


I have it on pretty good authority that changes are coming; the precise form the changes will take are still in flux at the moment, but they are "in the pipe". That said, I'm not at liberty to discuss them, either publically or privately; patience, recall, is widely viewed as a virtue.

At the end of the day, this is "Bob's Cafe" (and to a lesser extend "Bob & Carl's Cafe"). Any endeavor is going to be more successful if reflects the interests and desires of the owners. Do you guys wish it to be a all-inclusive debating forum and therapy stop, or a force for acceptance of men in skirts? I believe those two goals are exclusive. Both are good and honorable goals, and I'd support you in whatever decision you made.


To give a bit of background on the inner workings here, and I cannot, and do not presume to, speak for Bob, is that Bob is the ultimate authority in what the long-term goals are here; I provide occasional critique, the random proof-read, and a suggestion here and there. I also tend to serve as a sounding board for other notions and ideas that may be floating about. Personally, I want to see SkirtCafe primarily as a vehicle for driving the notion that non-trousered garments are acceptable on men, and to make that acceptability universal; I want it to be a forum where all the work that goes into creating believeable non-trousered rigs can be discussed (and it's a lot more work than just throwing stuff together); and I want it to be a resource for men who are interested in creating and wearing such outfits in believeable ways in all sorts of social settings. Would it not be grand to see someday a male conductor of an orchestra mount the podium in a long flowing robe instead of a 19th century monkey-suit? Or, as may be happening in Boston -- right now -- at the biennial convention of US Postal Service letter-carriers, where kilts may be introduced as an alternative to trousers and shorts for men in the USPS.

Wouldn't that be nice?
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Peter v » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:09 pm

HockeySkirt wrote:
Peter v wrote:I think: The problem lies not with the forum but with your friends who cannot read what is written and are apparently very biased.

Hello Peter,

I apologise but I cannot entirely understand what you are trying to say in most of your post, but will respond on this part (above) as it seems you might have misunderstood the intention of the remarks about my friends. My friends are, compared to the average, pretty open minded. They are not unusually "biased". In fact, I am quite lucky. They don't make a big deal about me wearing a kilt or skirt, beyond the usual good natured joking between friends. I don't blame them for having the same thoughts that the majority of people have when confronted with this topic -- I am quite able to explain the true nature of my motivations to them. The point is simply that I don't find SkirtCafe to be an asset when explaining skirt wearing to others, whereas X-Marks is an asset explaining kilt wearing. A male-skirt forum that stayed firmly on topic would be an asset.

Hockey Skirt



Sorry, if it looked as if I was talking specifically about YOUR friends. I was talking metaphorically, about all "friends " in general.

"I apologise but I cannot entirely understand what you are trying to say in most of your post,"
No need, I wrote it reacting in my own way to different things I felt were said and meant, which as for all posts is possible not fully clear to others.

Although I understand the Idea behind being able to refer to a specialistic site, is that neccessary? Is your garb, your way of dressing so hard to explain that you need to guide others to a site which only explains hopefully one of the many streams of freestyling of which you are a part, like it or not. Do men have a site for men in pin stripe three piece suits, baggy trousers etc? Can you explain men in pants with them?

Maybe there is such a site out there, go there, be my guest, if that is what you need to convince others what you are doing is acceptable for them, meanwhile that is just the mesage that is given here, even more so, being part of a broader community, which is an essential thing to get over to the public, and not being part of a very select group, doing something very well orchestrated. Otherwise you would maybe be part of a movement unintentional that gives the reader the impression that only kilts, only certain "manly" outfits are the done thing and ALL others are gooks, men gone bonkers :shock: :? :roll: Unless stated otherwise. Is that what people should think?

The sites are there for US, and US only, THEN and only then, can they be benneficial for others interested in what we do. "we" ( men in skirts, MEN, MEN!) do not or should not! wear skirts only in a way that is aceptable for others, as that would result in wearing skirts that are sewn in the middle :shock: :? Pants thus. But wear skirts and the whole outfit for themselves, breaking barriers that not others but we self have placed their, possibly under influence from those around us.
I am not discussing here the need to dress any particular way for any certain JOB, but certainly NOT for any CERTAIN BOSS!!his or her PERSONAL wishes :twisted:

It is also the question if the "friends" or other would take the interest to actually read the site, and read the intent of the site as we would wish them to.

The diversity of men in pants is quite large, the diversity of men in skirts is even larger, what don't others understand about men in a skirt, especially if they are people who you talk to? Would you have them believe that the site you suggest, is the THE explanation of men wearing skirts or an explanation of Your skirt wearing, disregarding what you are a part of?

Just how each individual wants to see it I suppose. If you drive a car, you are part of the motoring community, have the motoring experience, then comes detail, like what sort of car, how is it used etc. Then you can be a member of the automobile club, but ALSO you can be a member of a specialist club, very narrowly centered on one make or even type or use of vehicle.

I want to be a member of the automobile club of skirting. How do you mave about? I drive, (I skirt) I am a member of the automobile club (men in skirts club)

Nothing wrong with a special forum for men in skirts, but can you tell me what is a man in a skirt and what not, and where the acceptance ends?

I am sure that if people would read posts in skirt cafe they would find enough to realise that there is no one type of skirt wearer, as there is no "one" type of pants wearer. And can find the niche where you fit in. Besides, who is the forum for? people who don't give a damn about men in skirts? Or for ""us"" ( being the whole spectrum) men who want to wear them.
( For those who have diffuculty in understanding we and us, if you talk about men, you talk about every man there is, hetero, gay, white black, big small, whatever. We and us are all MEN who wear skirts, not categorized.)

There are many things which at face value can be easily explained for those willing to listen, and may need a more detailed explanation when going into details. Men in skirts is one of those things, but even if there was a site, how narrow it may be, for men in skirts, next to kilted men, etc, the explanation about it being a part of the greater picture cannot be forgotten. I would say paint the picture first, then if needed, if thee is specific interest, go into detail.
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Big and Bashful » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:17 pm

Having thought a bit more and read some of the more thought provoking comments, if I could vote again I would change to a vote for a split.

Why?

Going back two or three years, I would have suggested to anybody curious about why a man would want to wear a skirt, that they should have a look at this site, where a lot of men in search of a bit of comfort weren't afraid to push the benefits of skirtery.

Now there are far more posts about subjects which I feel are getting close to the TV/crossdressing type stuff which I think could put less adventurous people off the forum, rather than the well focussed "Blokes in skirts" forum we used to have. When I first joined the Cafe, I could point to it and say "Nothing wierd about a man in a skirt, look, here are a bunch of normal blokes who just like a bit of comfort". Now I can't do that, if I tried to convince somebody that it should be a normal choice (skirting) and pointed to this forum, they would just point at threads about manicures, tights, dressing femme and high heels etc. and I would lose any chance whatsoever of convincing them that skirting is an even slightly normal thing to choose to do.

I miss those days, if somebody started a "Blokes in Skirts" type forum off now, I am afraid I would drink my coffee, trip over the palm on the way out, pausing of course to leave a tip (My favourite tip at the moment is "Never pet your dog when it is on fire") and pay my bill, before leaving the Cafe, leggings, high heels, nail varnish etc. for pastures new.
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Peter v » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:55 pm

Crfriend, just a small question,
And I like your tactful:
"but articulate them in a manner in which the topics are put into the context of an entire coordinated look on the part of the man wearing a non-trousered outfit. "
It is hard to find the right words all the time but talking in that way is a way out of mentioning other well known terms which have less welcome meanings at the present.

Quote: "There's too much focus on individual elements at the moment."

How can that be if people ( members) are not reading those posts out of interest?
The members here are all men who wear skirts in one way or the other, there is no attracting hordes of travestites (sorry) or other outside the realm of men in skirts folk. It is all our own men. Isn't it just a good thing to have topics which men are enthousiastic about?

Or is the actual "problem" that the thought really is, men in skirts are only that when they change their trousers for their skirt and basta. For the rest they stay the ... man ... they were before. That would exclude a vast portion of the men in skirts. If that is not the case what is the "problem", who has a problem with interest from our own community for issues which are apparently of great interest to them?

People who buy trousers inevitably wind up talking to somebody about which (underpants) let us say socks :shock: :roll: they will wear..... and will sometime have to buy them too. I suppose. But they will not read about which underwear there is until they want it themselves or have a personal interest in it. Until then, they may want to know what pants are in fashion, etc. That fact will not stop them from entering a men's clothing store that sells all men's wear, of which shirts, jumpers, tank tops, underpants, socks and shoes, all make up the whole outfit for the man. If he is interested , he may ask for more information about the (boxers) socks or what not. Otherwise he will not even register having seen them on his way in and out of the shop.

Why should the postings on the cafe be anything different? Interest varies, what is wrong with talk about individual elements that have bearing on the skirt wearing, if that is actually what so many MEN wish to (finally be able to) talk about? Maybe that it was until now underrated, just the same way as men who wanted to wear skirts in public was at first underrated. Surely not because any reader from outside of the men in skirts community may read what we talk about and draw their conclusions? :shock: :roll: :( :shock: Then we could close shop.

Why do the kilt and skirt topics fall short? Are they falling short? I can guess. And giving others the blame isn't the answer, there are possibly not many really interested wearers for that segment, or they just don't post, don't have much to tell, whatever, I do not know. In no way are the other posts "pulling" men from the kilt, skirt topics to them at all unless those men are also interested in the topics.
Not everything we read is in afterthought what interested us, but we have to read it first. That is the gamble taken if you can read.
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Peter v » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:15 pm

Big and Bashfull, there is a very real danger with that, as the very "narrow"' image you so wantingly presented to others, may come back with revenge, if you wear ANYTHING other than what is apparently pure men in skirts as portrayed in the site you would actually wish for, FOR OTHER PEOPLE. As is often the case, not for ALL, but for many, men do change skirts and possibly what they wear with them, so then even you, or others with the same sort of ideas, may be then seen by the very people you so tried to indoctrinate, as being one of the "others", of which you were so precise in point out were beyond what was acceptable...

Instead of being part of a bigger picture, and then telling how you fill it in. That way you can vary if wanted any way you wish, and not only you, but every one, without getting any negative feedback which was so installed by yourself.

If the forum is read as it should be, then anybody can see that we all are still men, only we wear skirted clothes. Making that understandable for some is only possible by not wearing skirts at all. Because some people , the same that some men here wish to accomodate will never read anything without bias. Limiting ourselves to get some understanding from others is wrong.
Finding a site that caters only for one sort of skirt wearer is not wrong. But let it be another site. And then hope that skirt cafe is still here to come to the rescue if you want people to understand the real picture.
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
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Going Femme? Or going crazy?

Postby crfriend » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:00 am

Peter v wrote:
crfriend wrote:"[...] but articulate them in a manner in which the topics are put into the context of an entire coordinated look on the part of the man wearing a non-trousered outfit. "

It is hard to find the right words all the time but talking in that way is a way out of mentioning other well known terms which have less welcome meanings at the present.


If you are alluding to the potential suppression of long drawn-out discussions on topics that are fundamentally tangential to the notion of men wearing non-trousered garments then, yes, it's a way of calling a "time out" on that.

Peter v wrote:
crfriend wrote:"There's too much focus on individual elements at the moment."

How can that be if people ( members) are not reading those posts out of interest?


Experience points up that folks will read pretty much whatever is on a particular forum that may be of interest to them; it has more to do with the web-site URL than any internal compartmentalisation that said web-site may have. So, the inordinate focus on, say, "leggings" (to pick just one potential item) tends to override the overall message of the entire forum. One has to remember that SkirtCafe at the moment has a positively tiny membership, and it seems to be falling; without a "critical mass" on-line communities shrivel up and die -- and this can be tragic for members of said communities who are being drowned out by traffic that is (1) new to them and (2) does not interest them.

The members here are all men who wear skirts in one way or the other, there is no attracting hordes of travestites (sorry) or other outside the realm of men in skirts folk. It is all our own men. Isn't it just a good thing to have topics which men are enthousiastic about?


It's all well and good until the level of traffic about, say, "pantyhose", outstrips the level of traffic that is trying to rationally figure out how to get non-trousered outfits accepted -- by the general public. In purely technical terms, it's called the "signal-to-noise ratio" or simply S/N. Right now the S/N ratio is dismal, with the exception of the discussion of what to do about it.

Or is the actual "problem" that the thought really is, men in skirts are only that when they change their trousers for their skirt and basta.


Please enlighten a non Dutch-speaker: what's a "basta"?

If the challenge is that it's not enough for a guy to simply just swap trousers for a skirt, then I -- in my opinion -- believe you're right, because merely swapping one bottom for another usually doesn't work terribly well (some of my imagery points up the perils of this). If the thesis is that a guy must don enough "femme" clothing so as to make him indistinguishable from, or easily confused with, at a distance, a woman then I'll (again, my opinion) state that you're wrong.

For the rest they stay the ... man ... they were before. That would exclude a vast portion of the men in skirts.


Perhaps I'm not "reading you" correctly, or perhaps I'm just getting a bit "hot under the collar" (it happens from time to time), but I don't think that it should "exclude" anyone. I'm one of those oddballs that likes to have a good grasp of who is in my general vicinity, and one of the factors in that assay is whether I'm dealing with men or women (an arbitrary line to some, I'll aver, but it's an easy notion to latch onto); hence cues need to be present -- and subtle ones are OK -- but they have to be there else I get uncomfortable, as I suspect quite a large number of people do (and I suspect that more women fall into this category than men, as they're trained to regard men with suspicion).

Based on what we're seeing here in this thread, and the recent upheaval of SkirtCafe, I question whether the notion "excludes a vast portion of the men in skirts".

People who buy trousers inevitably wind up talking to somebody about which (underpants) let us say socks :shock: :roll: they will wear..... and will sometime have to buy them too.


Actually, no. Men who have been raised since birth in trousers know what accessories they need with their trousers and just go about it mechanically. However, once the average bloke gets outside what was drilled into him since birth troubles occur, and that's where rational discourse about putting together believeable looks ought to be of some real value. An endless stream of threads on tights, make-up, and whatnot will be confusing to the chap who is just thinking about experimenting "outside the box" he was raised in. The S/N ratio is too low.

Why should the postings on the cafe be anything different? Interest varies, what is wrong with talk about individual elements that have bearing on the skirt wearing, if that is actually what so many MEN wish to (finally be able to) talk about?


Focussing, laser-like, on the accessories that may -- or may not -- go with non-trousered looks detracts from the main thrust: that skirted clothing on males can work, it can look good, and it can convey a message of confidence and comfort. Why diminish the main "signal" that we're trying to send by drowning it in minutiae?

Why do the kilt and skirt topics fall short? Are they falling short?


They are falling short, and the reason is that there's been too much focus on the tangential aspects of non-trousered fashion in recent months. I'm not pointing fingers at any individual -- far from it in fact -- but the pattern is there, and it's the kilt-wearers that are the "canaries in the coal mine". They're dropping because there's either nothing of interest, or what they see here no longer reflects their world-view.

Not everything we read is in afterthought what interested us, but we have to read it first. That is the gamble taken if you can read.


That's a very human observation, and one that I think is dead on with reality. Here's another one: If I was a "newcomer" to SkirtCafe today, or was just "browsing though", I'd likely not bother to bookmark the site. I know that's harsh, but there's just been too much acrimony, and too little focus on getting non-trousered garments accepted on men for my taste. I don't care that this bloke wants to wear pantyhose anytime he sees fit, or that that one demands the "right" to wear a chemise to work, or that that one bemoans that he can't wear stiletto heels on the job-site; I'm interested in getting a non-trousered look accepted in mainstream society.
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Big and Bashful » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:19 am

Peter, there were always other forums on the net with the larger agenda you want, I liked the Cafe because it was less "all embracing". Maybe I am wrong but I feel that Bob & co. have been trying to keep the Cafe along the more limited direction you don't seem to want.
If I wanted my horizons broadened I would have joined the Atrium, however I feel that my horizons were wide enough once I started to buy skirts as well as kilts.
Now that the only really active topics in the Cafe seem to be either about leggings, shoes, etc. or topics about whether the forum is straying from the rightious path of honest skirtery, it ain't what it was when I joined and it isn't what I want to be a part of anymore.
Feel free to shape the Cafe into whatever you want it to be, I think it is time for me to move on to somewhere I can feel at home and remember this Cafe as it was when it felt like a good place to be.

However, since there isn't anywhere else, I will just lurk in the background in hopes that normal service will be resumed as soon as possible!
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Uncle Al » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:11 am

To All,

1st, please review my original post on page one of this thread :!:

2nd, I'm inclined to agree with B & B. This forum has, as of
lately, degraded itself. I used to be a fully participating member
at the Atrium. However, the members there turned more into
discussing CD, TG, etc. This edged me away. I rarely visit
there. X-Marks has been a big supporter of MIK. I've seen it
grow beyond what I thought it would. Many of our former
patrons are now at X-Marks, because of the 'shift' in threads
away from kilts and going strictly with skirts. The 'both' ( kilts
and skirts ) has turned to 'one' ( skirts). Now, some members
are wanting to 'shift' this forum even further away from the
tennants of the Cafe'. I, personally, can't see any man wearing
a dress in public. To me, this is female impersonation. Our society
is unable to cope with this idea. Why can't we get back to the
basics. Get Kilts accepted as common as trousers. Then
work in the skirts. We can't just up and run. We must 1st
learn to crawl, then stand, and walk. Then we can run
with almost anything. This is how we educate society, ONE
STEP AT A TIME. The posts of men wearing skirts, hose, and
womens shoes do not belong here.
This is the start of the downfall of the Cafe'.
We are Men, discussing Men's attire.
That does not include womens shoes.

I too will be watching what happens. I will read, think and
go on. I may not post anything. I may post something.

Who knows?

Uncle Al
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Grand Musician of the Grand Lodge, I.O.O.F. of Texas 2008-2009 & 2015-2016
When asked 'Why the Kilt?'
I respond-The why is F.T.H.O.I. (For The H--- Of It)
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