Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

[sapphire]

I do not want to see the Cafe split. We all (including me) have much to learn from each other's ideas.

[Big and Bashful]

If there is a shortage of other sites, then I will be more than happy for Skirt cafe to have an area for free stylers etc, an area for kilties etc. and an area for masculine skirters. Which is what we have now isn't it? or something close anyway. I admit that threads about painting nails and various other accoutriments leave me cold, so I don't need to read them.
I haven't replied much to anywhere in the cafe over the last few days but only because I am waiting for something to get me interested.
If we split the site then we will probably end up with two seperate sites which may implode because of a lack of numbers.
I am sure that the cafe will weather this storm like previous rough patches, at least Bob & co. are doing his best for the forum and I think they are doing an excellent job.

[Ray]

Oh my goodness. Here we go again.

This has for a long time been a broad church. Many of you forget that. You weren't there in the late 1990s, so I have to confess that imposing your views, when they contradict the tone and aims of this board as set up in the late 1990s is annoying to say the least.

JR Miller - the wearing of hosiery as part of mens' attire is quite appropriate to be discussed here. It always has been. Why should that change? See PeterV's comments. Please do your research before you post.

The whole point of SkirtCafe is that it's about the only place where men who want to appear as men (and I don't care how that presents iteslf can share ideas on how to go about it. CD websites cater for a completely different group. As for the Atrium, well, that used to be a great place, but has now descended into vitriol and paranoia (police brutality? FFS!). So this is about the only place left for those who want to wear what they want while being evidently male.

If you like nail varnish ONLY and want to bring that in to mens mainstream fashion, this is the place.
If you like denim skirts ONLY and want to bring that into mens mainstream fashion, this is the place.
If you like hosiery ONLY and want to bring that into mens mainstream fashion, this is the place.
If you like kilts, and want to extend the wearing of these outside Scotland, then this is the place.

If you blend all of the above and want to bring ALL OF THESE into mens mainstream fashion, THIS IS, AND REMAINS, THE PLACE.

Big & Bashful - you are absolutely right. This is another storm. It will pass.

Frankly, if you don't like the café as it stands, then I submit that you may well be intolerant/insensitive/insecure/need to look back at a 12 year history of this place before opining in so forceful a fashion. Yes, there are certainly ways of stating things - we don't tend to use the phrases "pretty" or "feminine" because of (a) perception, (b) a desire to preserve a separate identitiy to CD etc websites, and (c) a host of other reasons. That, to me, is the crux of many of the spats we see. An aggressive or negative way of posting things (or even defensive - Pythos - even when you don't have to be. You have great ideas - just angrily posted. So much anger...)

I'm also amazed at the tone of those who carp on about the "feminising" of the place. I don't exactly see, or hear about, you advocating only kilts, do I? Yes, kilts, the most masculine of all MUGS (as defined by any public poll you wish to mention). Surely, from the perspective of the uber-kiltwearer, you are already feminising the board by not wearing a kilt? You see, it's all about where you start from. A kiltie might look at a denim skirt and think "girly". What's important on this board is that that kiltie, and indeed anyone, recognises the individual path that others are taking to promote fashion freedom for all of us.

May I just remind you about the header on this board. My brackets and emphasis.

Skirt Cafe is an on-line community dedicated to exploring, promoting and advocating skirts and kilts as a fashion choice for men, formerly known as men in skirts. We do this in the context of men's fashion freedom --- an expansion of choices beyond those commonly available for men to include kilts, skirts and other garments (yes, other garments! Not just kilts or skirts). We recognize a diversity (focus on that word, please) of styles our members feel comfortable wearing, and do not exclude any potential choices. Continuing dialog on gender is encouraged in the context of fashion freedom for men.

The café as it exists has clearly definied elements for all of us. As I said at the start, it's a broad church. Always has been. Read, and ponder on, Sapphire's comments. Here's a woman opining - and my goodness, isn't that what we want to include? Not a bunch of agitated men, but a wider discussion involving our spouses, girlfriends etc?

Now let's get back to opening up clothing avenues for all of us. And for pete's sake, read ALL of the blurb at the top, not just the bits you choose to read.

Bob, Carl - good moderation. I understand the need for a heavy hand recently. It will pass.

[Departed Member]

Pantyhose and tights go along with skirt wearing, male or female.

I can't see how a front zippered denim or twill skirt could work while standing up with pantyhose or any panty type underwear on. Just my opinion, am I wrong?

Let's cut to the crunch here. One person is expressing his view that tights are an integral part of skirt wearing, yes? OK, a very narrow view, but does it have 21st Century credence? I would suggest not. Depends where you live, but in the temperate climate of the UK, you'd expect that this would very definitely be the case. It might have been (for fairly obvious reasons!) in the mini-skirted '60s and '70s, but very much not de rigeur today! Which, for health reasons alone, has to be very good news!

However, and repeating what some here wish to deny, tights wearing by men isn't something 'new', 'daring' or 'femme' (sorry, girls!). Almost since they appeared on UK markets (at least), blokes (esp. outdoor types) have been wearing' em in the cold, damp days of winter. Again, sorry, it's been the 'macho' types, builders, firemen, coppers, postmen, farm workers that have done so for 40-odd years. Even footballers, under their shorts, wear 'em! There is NO BIG DEAL about men wearing tights, other than for the one reason that Skip has presumed upon. Toiletting! They're nigh on impossible to comfortably re-adjust after using urinals. It doesn't matter one jot how long your zip is, or even whether they're those very(!) expensive ones with a built-in fly, they're still a pain to get 'comfortable' agin!

As for whether they're an appropriate topic for the forum, though, I would on reflection, and considering the re-iteration of rules (in respect of non-discussion of underwear) made here several years ago and, adhered to until very recently, have to say, "No, they don't belong here". "Why?" "They're no more than a unisex undergarment."

[Departed Member]

Being told by people here that miniskirts are "for women only", or leggings are "very feminine", or "pantyhose are not for men" all are voiced limitations on what people can and should wear, based on the posters only narrow viewpoint.

I definitely like the idea of a "big tent" for all guys who dare to be guys, but have the drive to in essence make clothing style unisex, just as long as you don't try to pass as a member of the opposite gender.

The only person on this forum who appears to consider wearing leggings as "feminine", "very feminine" or "femme" is surely yourself, Pythos? I've challenged you on this issue more than once on other threads. So far, all you've done is go very quiet for a day or so, then 'pretend' you haven't 'heard'. Leggings are purely unisex sports wear, which are currently 'enjoying' a spell in the 'fashion' world. The only adjective I'd be prepared to use to describe the look (in a street fashion context only) is 'juvenile'. Apparently, this view coincides with those of all but my 5 year old grand-daughter!

[crfriend]

Mod hat off, but handy. (Oh, cr@p -- it's eyeing me!)

Let's cut to the crunch here. One person is expressing his view that tights are an integral part of skirt wearing, yes? OK, a very narrow view, but does it have 21st Century credence? I would suggest not.

I would humbly suggest that it depends on the individual in question who is contemplating putting together a "MUG" look. Womenfolk have largely cast such garments aside in favour of the bare-legged look; this brings some benefits, true, but also brings a "casualness" to the picture that may not be what another individual might wish to project.

As far as the notion of them being a unisex garment, although not usually discussed as such, I must say that has a fair bit of credence if one does a little bit of research. Here's a bit of original research:

I started using legwear quite a bit before I started wearing skirted garments, and I did so on the advice of a very lovely lady who I used to commute with on the train in and out of the local "big city" in the late 1990s. Here's the story (skip ahead if you're bored, tired, or just don't care): One morning the usual lot of wage-slaves were standing out on the train platform, exposed to the winter elements in Worcester, Massachusetts; we were a mixed bag, about 50/50 men-to-women. Even though I was wearing a Korean-war era heavy military-issue trenchcoat with a thick lining my legs were bloody-well freezing. My upper parts could be dealt with well enough by turning the collar up and turning my backside, yak-like, into the wind, but there was about 18 inches that despite tr*usrs, damn near froze. Interestingly, most of the womenfolk didn't seem to suffer from this, despite seemingly being dressed in somewhat lighter gear. Now, being on good terms with many of the folks on the train, if not most, I asked one of the gals how they put up with the nastiness of the elements. The answer came back, "Pantyhose. You know, lots of guys wear 'em when it's cold out." And, you know it worked. And there's no shame. So, unisex it is!

That changes, though, when the legwear shows -- as it quite naturally does when one dons a skirted garment (I just can't embrace "MUG"; it sounds forced). In this instance, all legwear is is a tool -- a means to achieve a look that one is after -- nothing more, and nothing less. And, as pointed up above, is a unisex garment so let's just get over it.

However, problems do exist:

Toiletting! They're nigh on impossible to comfortably re-adjust after using urinals. It doesn't matter one jot how long your zip is, or even whether they're those very(!) expensive ones with a built-in fly, they're still a pain to get 'comfortable' agin!

That's borderline on "too much information", but does have a place. All I can say is that, with practise, the "rearrangement ritual" can be carried out discretely, even in a public rest-room, with no-one around even being aware of it.

As for whether they're an appropriate topic for the forum, though, I would on reflection, and considering the re-iteration of rules (in respect of non-discussion of underwear) made here several years ago and, adhered to until very recently, have to say, "No, they don't belong here". "Why?" "They're no more than a unisex undergarment."

Actually, the way the "rule" works is that stuff that "is not intended for public display in normal situations" is off-topic, whereas stuff that is intended to be visible under normal conditions is on-topic. It's just that with this particular garment we span both arenas. (I need to get a lead-lined safe for that hat. It's starting to scare me.)

[Peter v]

Mod hat off, but handy. (Oh, cr@p -- it's eyeing me!)

Crfriend, is that hat a cousin to the Harry Potter Sorting Hat???

[Peter v]

I think that in itself it is a good topic to deep search the forum, and get a good insight as to the intentions, the rules as they can be and should be anno 2008, not 1990 or whatever. But I don't think that the forum itself should be callenged in the what seems to be an agressive take over bid by the very few. How many people here are actually challenging the way the forum functions at the moment? And is it strange that some members go into the defence mode to counteract the attack.

Another thing, discussing socks, pantys, shoes, shirts, vests, all the other clothing which we should be wearing with a skirt is very normal when talking about "how we dress ourselves". Skirts are I think more critical than pants with regards to the possibilitys and multiple choices, that is inherent. If you have a car, you talk about the tires, the oil, the polish, the radio, the emissions, the tax, your lighting etc etc.

Skirts are PART OF our clothing, of a outfit that we assemble. Unless it is so damned hot that we only wear a skirt.
So what the H-ll is wrong with that? And if now that we are fashion concious, for the people that it interests, isn't it correct to talk about the choices in hosery, whether it be men's socks, short, long, or pantyhose. And if they are difficult to use, well the ones who want to get the pleasure from wearing them take that for granted.

There are men who wear pants who are very fashion concious, and want to know every detail about their outfits and what others are wearing, etc, next to men who just put any thing on in the morning. For skirt wearers it works the same way.
Some are only interested in plain outfits, aother want to know which shoes go well with which skirt, and what do you wear on top? A blazer, wind cheater, shirt and tie? A skirt is not compleet without the other components. Including leg wear, for those INTERESTED.

Some people just turn the key of their car and fill it with gas, others live and love cars, talking about every detail. It surely is no different, when men are talking about how they dress, using a skirt as a basis? Some men never wear anything but jeans and T shirts their whole life, others get manicured, go to the hair dresses, wear suits and wear something different almost every day. Why should the interest be any different on this site? And all the while, there is NOTHING UN-MANLY.

It should be enlightening, reading about all the new things men are doing and wearing, even if you would never do that yourself. But there are many who visit this site just because of that, a learning experience, and if they THINK that they like some thing too, then thay can try that as well. Skirt wearing and all that is possible is something very new to "MEN" and is evolving all the time. In a way it is great that you can read about other people's experiences, no matter how extreme or different to that which you are or do, because then you can go through the same things in thought without having to actually do it yourself. like watching James Bond movies. This site is also a learning site, for those who are interested in fashion freedom based on skirts. How far each man is willing to actually go is his own choice and he is totally free in that.

I THINK THAT, If it is look related, part of an outfit, which is visible, it should be possible to talk about it. Only when there is a fetisch, sexual reason, a non outfit relation then it should definitely NOT be talked about here. Even petticoats are mentioned, no harm in that even though they are mostly not seen. That is often a discussion about a functional part of an outfit which is sometimes preferred under some skirts, even kilts. It seems that for some members, even that should not be mentioned.

I would argue again that when all react with respect, and levell headed, if any postings were unintentionally too intimate, or unapropriate, othen as before, the poster would get a friendly attention to edit or delete his posting. No problem.

There is no beginning on narrowing, limiting posts, as it seems that some would rather have, without ending up with a hollow empty room.

[crfriend]

Mod hat off, but handy. (Oh, cr@p -- it's eyeing me!)

Crfriend, is that hat a cousin to the Harry Potter Sorting Hat???

My "mod hat" is a notional device I use to indicate, unequivocally, that I am speaking with the full force and power of a moderator, and, since the thing is an imaginary notion, it can take on any form I desire it to. But, to answer you question directly: Yes, the last messages it has appeared in (in a supporting role, mind you; or is that me supporting the hat?) did have it modelled lightly on the "Sorting Hat" from the Harry Potter series, although with a bit of a skew on it.

I really don't much like operating as a moderator; vastly preferring the role of individual contributor, so I try to approach the matter with a sense of humour, and fiddling with the "hat's" notional form is one way to have a bit of fun with the concept, whilst still indicating the role in which I'm speaking.

It may be "something completely different" next time.

[Stevie D]

Oh my goodness. Here we go again.
.......... [edited to save bandwidth and space; please refer to Ray's full post above:
http://www.skirtcafe.org/forums/viewtop ... 687#p89687 ]
Bob, Carl - good moderation. I understand the need for a heavy hand recently. It will pass.

Well said, Ray. I agree 100% with everything you have written.
I think you have summed it up beautifully. I hope others think so too.

[Since1982]

My opinion on a quote by a chain puller here, "pantyhose is for male or female skirt wearers" or something like that, is this...hose might be, but a panty (American type) has no opening for the male plumbing, so whatever underwear a male wears, whether it be boxer shorts or jockey briefs, both of which have an opening for plumbing needs to be there, unless the skirtist is going commando, leaves no place in the male setup for a panty to be worn. Nuff said?

[01/01/08]

OK class, everyone take out your copy of DESIDERATA and read it aloud.
After reading it please answer 1 question. Is it safe?




john

[crfriend]

Dammit. [Mod hat on]

[... A] panty (American type) has no opening for the male plumbing, so whatever underwear a male wears, whether it be boxer shorts or jockey briefs, both of which have an opening for plumbing needs to be there [...]

That's "too much information". And, because it addresses items that are not supposed to be visible, falls outside SkirtCafe's purview.

[Mod hat off] -- this time with no humour in it because all of this has been discussed before and I don't particularly like repeating myself -- especially in moderator mode.

[sapphire]

OK I'm the woman in this thread and I am also the one who introduced the thread "nails and hooves". I'd like to point out that manicures and pedicures are neither "homme" or "femme". They are grooming choices.

Wear a beard or not - a grooming choice.

What to wear with your skirted garment? That is both a fashion choice and an accessorization choice.

It would be a shame to see this group bifurcated over grooming and accessorization choices.

Oh, I forgot. I'm not a man. Maybe I don't belong here

[Peter v]

OK I'm the woman in this thread and I am also the one who introduced the thread "nails and hooves". I'd like to point out that manicures and pedicures are neither "homme" or "femme". They are grooming choices.

Wear a beard or not - a grooming choice.

What to wear with your skirted garment? That is both a fashion choice and an accessorization choice.

It would be a shame to see this group bifurcated over grooming and accessorization choices.

Oh, I forgot. I'm not a man. Maybe I don't belong here

Of course you are right, men should talk about their outfit, who only talks about his skirt, as if he only wears a skirt and nothing else?

Wearing a skirt makes up PART of our total outfit. However that may be. Grooming choices are also part of our total "make-up" ( meaning the way we look, how we are dressed, the total "make-up")

Grooming ( with attention to detail) as many other things is not for many men, too costly, time consuming and too "idle" for many. But if it is done, we are no less a man for doing it, if anything, we are adding the finnishing touch to our hygene, cleanliness. Placing the dot on the i so to speak.

Men belong here, women are very welcome guests. No Sapphire, you are not ""allowed"" to leave, no better said, it would not be wishful for your leaving. I for one would surely miss you.

Women contribute a much needed input from "the other side". And I for one welcome women on this site, especially women "in the know" who have husbands or very near men friends wearing skirts in public. They not only bring much needed input, for various reasons, but give some warmth, comments that only women can do. I like the mixed company. As this is a men's skirt site, we men don't have to worry that hordes of women will start posting and take the site over.