Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Discuss recent changes, make suggestions, etc.

Should we split the board and create FreestyleCafe?

yes --- create FreestyleCafe for a more "femme" approach to fashion freedom, and leave SkirtCafe as a place for men's fashion.
7
23%
no --- let's just all get along, the diversity is beneifical.
23
77%
 
Total votes : 30

Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Bob » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:17 am

.... in short, the answer is no.

However, SkirtCafe has some femme members. It has always had "femme" members since Tom's day. With the slow demise of the Atrium and the more recent shutdown of IMFF, SkirtCafe has become more the "only" board in town, and hence has a greater diversity than before. SkirtCafe's "femme" members are human beings just like everybody else. And just like everybody else, they use men's names and don't do fake body parts on SkirtCafe.

In the past, we've had periodic arguments with the Cafe, often regarding who is and is not "manly enough" or "too femme" for the board. Or who is and is not more "evolved" in fashion freedom. These arguments typically come about not because someone is "too femme" for the board, but because someone is disrespectful, and tries to push his agenda on others on the board. That type of disrespect will not be tolerated.

I would really, really like it if we can all just get along together. Topics deemed "femme" will be placed in the "Freestyle Fashions" section. People who aren't into that stuff don't have to read it. And posts that push and agenda or otherwise set one member against another because of his fashion choice will be heavily moderated.

Carl and I are open to hearing other opinions and viewpoints on this topic. If we can't get along, we always have the option of splitting the board. FreestyleCafe would replace IMFF and (somewhat) the Atrium, whereas SkirtCafe would revert back to its core mission of skirts and kilts for men.

So... what do you think?
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Uncle Al » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:32 am

Bob,

I believe that the Cafe' should remain "as-is" and that any member
should respect the views of others, yet those views should not be
forced on anyone else. They are views/opinions and should be taken
as such.
I may not care for something, but I don't intentionally
flame anyone for their view/opinions. I will support that member in
anyway I can, offering encouragement when needed. We ALL need
to support each other as much as possible. Each one of us is on a
different level of experience, new-average-all out, skirt and kilt wearers.

In my opinion, Masculine and Feminine should not be discussed.
These words should be eliminated when it comes to fashion. This
may put some people 'on-the-edge' with their fashion style.

We should be discussing what will help make a complete outfit, but
not discussing what can't be seen by the public.
A suggestion of
'this type of shirt would work best with......' or 'a pleated skirt would
work better with......' is a much better approach in helping others
achieve their goals.

Our primary goal should be getting Kilts and Skirts For Men into the main
stream fashion world.
Where a Man wearing a Skirt or Kilt will not
raise any questions, nor be accosted/ridiculed for what he is
wearing. A Non-event so to speak. A box pleated tweed kilt suit
would be a marvelous fashion statement, just as a pin-stripe skirt
suit would be. Granted, in these examples, the dreaded tie would
need to be worn as well. (Or wear an ascot in place of a tie.)
This would be more towards formal wear than casual wear.

These statements are my opinions and feelings on this subject.

These statements are not intended to insult anyone, but to suggest
a fair set of guidelines when discussing items at the Cafe'.

Uncle Al
Duncanville, TX

edited for grammer/spelling
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Departed Member » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:18 am

Bob wrote: ...Or who is and is not more "evolved" in fashion freedom. These arguments typically come about not because someone is "too femme" for the board, but because someone is disrespectful, and tries to push his agenda on others on the board.


I'm not sure "disrespectful" is the correct adjective here, because that would imply deliberate intent, but there is no doubt whatsoever, that post after post of being told I, (or we,) am only part way along some spurious path to "femmedom" leads to increasing annoyance, and even anger. One of the 'key' factors on this forum has been to establish over the years that it is not only, not the aims of the vast majority here, but is a total anathema, and major obstacle to outright acceptance of our chosen garments.

Bob wrote:I would really, really like it if we can all just get along together. Topics deemed "femme" will be placed in the "Freestyle Fashions" section. People who aren't into that stuff don't have to read it. And posts that push and agenda or otherwise set one member against another because of his fashion choice will be heavily moderated.


Whilst I understand your feelings about this, sorry, I cannot see it happening. The very fact that what some regard as "extreme content" is still here, will continue to dissuade many folk, who would have otherwise felt able to participate. Certainly, I observed "Tom's" from the sidelines for a very long time, before feeling 'comfortable enough' to contribute. OK, I may be more tolerant of what some consider 'negative elements', but it is sure putting others off.

Bob wrote:Carl and I are open to hearing other opinions and viewpoints on this topic. If we can't get along, we always have the option of splitting the board. FreestyleCafe would replace IMFF and (somewhat) the Atrium, whereas SkirtCafe would revert back to its core mission of skirts and kilts for men. So... what do you think?


OK! You did ask! For the sake of both elements, and for both to prosper on their chosen routes, then I think it's definitely beneficial to 'split'. I appreciate it will cause some initial upheaval, but if it keeps 95% happy, rather than 25%, I say, "Go ahead, you'll have my full support." :)
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Since1982 » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:57 am

How about this choice. Or maybe I don't understand "splitting" the board. My idea is to have a completely new site for freestylers, with new sign on names, and nothing but what freestylers want to talk about allowed on that site. Leaving Skirtcafe to be a nothing but Skirts and Kilts for men as it's mostly been for the last 4 years, site. Whaddaya think? 8)
I had to remove this signature as it was being used on Twitter. This is my OPINION, you NEEDN'T AGREE.

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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby crfriend » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:30 am

In my opinion, Masculine and Feminine should not be discussed.
These words should be eliminated when it comes to fashion. This
may put some people 'on-the-edge' with their fashion style.


I believe at issue here is that the terms are sometimes used as perjoratives, and that hurts everybody. One needs to bear in mind that neither is "superior" to the other, and that people who use the terms to indicate a superiority are misusing the language (to put it nicely).

Our primary goal should be getting Kilts and Skirts For Men into the main
stream fashion world.


I'll happily second that!

[...] I don't understand "splitting" the board. My idea is to have a completely new site for freestylers, with new sign on names, and nothing but what freestylers want to talk about allowed on that site.


That's precisely the notion of "splitting" the board -- to fork it off into two divergent paths, one to remain as "SkirtCafe" and the other to evolve into whatever it might become.
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Stevie D » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:16 am

Splitting the board:

I would be saddened to see the Cafe split in two. As the voting option says, I truly believe the diversity is beneficial; remaining polite, civil and respectful is the price we need to pay for that, and it is the responsibility of us all to be polite, civil and respectful. Striving to get along together says much more about our humanity than the apartheid-like, apparently easy, option of putting a barrier up in order to separate people who have different opinions.

We are an intelligent group with strong ideas and feelings; it is inevitable that there will be disagreements occasionally. In my opinion, I think disagreements can be healthy, so long as the debates are conducted respectfully and there is no name-calling or nastiness. While Carl and Bob do an excellent job in keeping us in order (thanks both! - we have come a long way from nastiness engendered by the religion and firearms slanging matches of a couple of years ago!), nevertheless I have just had the feeling recently that you guys have been just a leeettle bit too hasty in closing down threads which might otherwise have burned out their passions naturally. It is a very difficult path to tread, being a moderator. 'Damned if you do and damned if you don't', etc...
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Since1982 » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:18 am

Carl wrote:That's precisely the notion of "splitting" the board -- to fork it off into two divergent paths, one to remain as "SkirtCafe" and the other to evolve into whatever it might become.
COOL, I for one, am completely in favor of that. No more arguing about who's right. THAT would be great! I hate arguing. I'd much rather agree to agree. :alien: :mrgreen: :thewave: :thewave:
I had to remove this signature as it was being used on Twitter. This is my OPINION, you NEEDN'T AGREE.

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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby simon » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:22 am

While the "femme" aspects are not my path, I don't think there should be any kind of split. There will always be some overlap, so it would make it difficult for those users. But I do agree that a separate section could be useful. (Split into multiple boards if necessary)
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Stevie D » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:27 am

simon wrote:.... But I do agree that a separate section could be useful. (Split into multiple boards if necessary)

We have that already in the different topic sections.
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Bob » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:19 pm

The recent hasty shutting-down of threads was a temporary "emergency" measure, while we thought through what to do. That moderation "mode" has been lifted, there shouldn't be many shutdowns from here on.
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby crfriend » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:05 pm

Note: This is written from the viewpoint of an individual contributor, not that of a moderator. (I'm not schizophrenic -- really!)

Steve D wrote:I would be saddened to see the Cafe split in two. As the voting option says, I truly believe the diversity is beneficial; remaining polite, civil and respectful is the price we need to pay for that, and it is the responsibility of us all to be polite, civil and respectful. Striving to get along together says much more about our humanity than the apartheid-like, apparently easy, option of putting a barrier up in order to separate people who have different opinions.


I concur. "Splitting the board" would do nothing but drive a fatter wedge into the community than has already been done, and I believe that ultimately that would benefit no-one. From a personal perspective, I like the "big tent" approach, and believe that all should be welcome underneath so long as some basic standards of decency are adhered to. We can all benefit from this, even if some of us occasionally feel a bit of discomfort; after all, if we're never exposed to new ideas we stagnate.

Certainly, "splitting the board" is the "easy way out" but strength is derived from having to struggle sometimes. My "vote" (again, as an individual contributor) is to not split the board.
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Sasquatch » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:37 pm

I agree with Stevie. I'm not crazy about the idea of seeing the Cafe deviate from its prime mission, so I would suggest that periods of agressive moderation may be the key to keeping this a safe and sane environment for all respectful correspondents. When you start splitting off users for their tastes, you are walking a tightrope. One side is chaos and hard feelings, the other side is boredom. The problem is, we all have very different opinions of just what is "freestyle" and what isn't, and that debate is unlikely to ever be resolved with or without a split. Some would say that tights, shaving, and painted toenails are absolutely freestyle, so am I waist-down freestyle? That would push me into a group that may also go far past my own comfort level. I'd rather see us stay the "Yugoslavia" of boards rather than see Balkanization with animosity. If Ireland can find a path to peace so can we. So, Bob and Carl, I know being the enforcers is uncomfortable work, but periodic crackdowns may be the best answer.

Peter Yarrow (of Peter, Paul, and Mary - an early 60's folk music trio for you youngsters) tells a humorous story in some concerts, which I will try to recount.

In the 1940s, 50s and 60s every home had a subscription to LIFE magazine. Life. That's a fairly big topic and not easy to cover fully. There is a lot to write about Life. So in the 1970s publishers began to narrow their focus, and out came PEOPLE magazine. That dealt with one large aspect of Life, which is People, who are also living organisms. But there are a lot of People and that takes a lot of work to talk about them, and deciding which People to cover. So the field was again narrowed and out came US magazine. Still talking about People who are a part of Life but just not all People but only our group of People, just Us, and not them. But Us is still a lot of People and in an age of personal indulgence, the newest mag to evolve was SELF. That was simple. Just write about stuff that only affects the Life of Us People personally. Yarrow went on to speculate that SELF was still too broad, and that magazines would eventually find a way to focus on the individual reader. The next new magazine, he suggested, will be called ME!! and will consist of 76 pages of shiny mirrored foil!

Let's think carefully before Skirt Cafe becomes shiny mirrored foil!

Sasq
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Pythos » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:00 pm

I personally think splitting the cafe would be a very bad idea. An forum for men with alternative fashion ideas that includes most everything women have the choice to wear is the better way to go.

For those that just want to talk kilts, stay in the kilts section, same goes for skirts only.

Those with other styles, go to the freestyle section.

I think the way the forum is now is fine.
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby Departed Member » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:45 pm

Pythos wrote: I think the way the forum is now is fine.


With all due respect, the forum in its present state is the problem!

Pythos wrote: An forum for men with alternative fashion ideas that includes most everything women have the choice to wear is the better way to go. For those that just want to talk kilts, stay in the kilts section, same goes for skirts only. Those with other styles, go to the freestyle section.


Again, the very reason behind 'splits' in the past was because of that very 'mix'! Saying that folk can, "Just go to the section that covers their particular interest", doesn't take into account the way 'other' folk see this site - and is almost certainly the reason so many have disappeared without trace, ceased to contribute or worse, don't join. The very fact that the forum has moved away from the (re-)stated Core Values, is why we've arrived at this crossroads. "Most everything women have", accurately sums up the 'gap', sorry, 'chasm' that has developed relatively recently. I fully understand that some ex IMFF and Atrium stalwarts were left looking for somewhere to go. The aims of some of the current membership are now, realistically, too diverse for the forum to successfully survive. The least acrimonious way forward, which will benefit everyone, both short and long term, is to take what are clearly widely different paths. There is no problem including a link, is there? There are undoubtably a number who would wish to contribute to both sites, which would only strengthen both, not weaken them. I spent enough years in management involved in active team building to know that the route we currently find ourselves in, is liable to end up in a cul-de-sac, with those still present fighting among themselves to escape.
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Re: Is SkirtCafe Going "Femme"?

Postby JRMILLER » Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:32 pm

I have to agree with Merlin. The reason I joined this group in the first place was because it was men who wanted to be "men", but were interested in kilts and skirts. I have visited and contributed to some of the CD groups, but they make me uncomfortable and I have quite going there. If the femme trend continues here, I will probably leave.

-john
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