Group,
Just curious, judging by the topics and replies I suspect the members of this group are mainly freestylers. I know the group went through a shakeout a while back and I am wondering if any BHs are left in the group or if they have all departed for the Gray Havens.
Are there any Bravehearts remaining?
Are there any Bravehearts remaining?
-John
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You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself (Rick Nelson "Garden Party")
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You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself (Rick Nelson "Garden Party")
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Charlie
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If you mean kilt wearers, then I'll put my hand up. I wear modern, non-tartan kilts while out and about because that's what my mind is comfortable in (still haven't gone out and about in a 'real' skirt yet 
) Also wear sarongs in the summer.
But I'm not a kilt wearer to the exclusion of all other non-bifurcated garments - that would be just boring
Hmmm.... perhaps I'm not a Braveheart after all 
Who cares?
Charlie
) Also wear sarongs in the summer.But I'm not a kilt wearer to the exclusion of all other non-bifurcated garments - that would be just boring
Hmmm.... perhaps I'm not a Braveheart after all Who cares?Charlie
If I want to dress like a woman, I'll wear jeans.
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Ray
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If you look at what I wear in public, I am a Braveheart for the most part. I'm quite comfortable with the arguments put forward by the Braveheart camp, while not entirely being within it. Certainly, I love kilts! I'll be in one this friday in town (okay, with sheer hosiery - I did say Braveheart for the most part!). Can't wait.
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Departed Member
I would be deeply offended to be regarded as a 'freestyler', as that to me infers frills, flowers and 'femme'. To be honest, I get mildly 'p*ssed off by folk continually berating those of us who choose to wear darker colours, and trying to belittle us, by describing them as 'drab', at the same time insisting that we must wear bright, flambouyant clothing. That's just a personal viewpoint, of course, but equally, I'd not want to be known as a 'braveheart' due to the inferred connection with that heinous travesty of a film of the same name! 
Like others here who wear Kilts, I'm pretty conservative when it comes to skirts. Kilts are great when the temperature dips below, say 40F, but they can be 'awkward' to wear and occasionally 'attract' inane comments. Otherwise, the 'denim road' is a perfectly acceptable alternative. I was encouraged to go full-on, dark ankle-length (initially as an experiment) by some of the girls at work who 'assumed' that, as I follow a Wiccan lifestyle, ergo, I must wear skirts, and long black ones at that!
Like others here who wear Kilts, I'm pretty conservative when it comes to skirts. Kilts are great when the temperature dips below, say 40F, but they can be 'awkward' to wear and occasionally 'attract' inane comments. Otherwise, the 'denim road' is a perfectly acceptable alternative. I was encouraged to go full-on, dark ankle-length (initially as an experiment) by some of the girls at work who 'assumed' that, as I follow a Wiccan lifestyle, ergo, I must wear skirts, and long black ones at that!
Re: Are there any Bravehearts remaining?
What is this Brave herart thing? Does it have anything to do with kilt wearing?JRMILLER wrote:Group,
Just curious, judging by the topics and replies I suspect the members of this group are mainly freestylers. I know the group went through a shakeout a while back and I am wondering if any BHs are left in the group or if they have all departed for the Gray Havens.
Thanks,
Peter v.
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
Bravehearts
Guys,
Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is a Braveheart is one who is encouraging & promoting the wearing, acceptance and availability of kilts for men -- period.
Freestylers, of course, take more liberty than BHs in their clothing choices to include just about anything women wear.
My understanding is that there was a good bit of controversy between these groups at one time which eventually quieted down. BTW, I have NO intention of stirring anything like that up again! What I am wondering is simply are there any Bravehearts left that actively participate in this group? If so, I would like to have their participation in our discussions.
See http://www.kiltmen.com/ as an example site for the Bravehearts.
Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is a Braveheart is one who is encouraging & promoting the wearing, acceptance and availability of kilts for men -- period.
Freestylers, of course, take more liberty than BHs in their clothing choices to include just about anything women wear.
My understanding is that there was a good bit of controversy between these groups at one time which eventually quieted down. BTW, I have NO intention of stirring anything like that up again! What I am wondering is simply are there any Bravehearts left that actively participate in this group? If so, I would like to have their participation in our discussions.
See http://www.kiltmen.com/ as an example site for the Bravehearts.
-John
______________________
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself (Rick Nelson "Garden Party")
______________________
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself (Rick Nelson "Garden Party")
Yes, Bravehearts are absolutely welcome here, and the "Kilts, Kilts" forum emphasizes that fact. However, this forum has always encompassed a larger audience than JUST Bravehearts, and people on all "sides" need to undertsand that. Bravehearts on this forum are generally willing to associate with skirt-wearing men of all kinds.
HOWEVER: I do not feel there should be any express or implied pressure on Bravehearts to wear other skirts. There is no "progression" from dark-colored kilts to flamboyant polka-dotted skirts, nor are Freestylers better or worse than Bravehearts. Everyone is entitled to their choice in fashion, based on who they are and what makes them comfortable. This forum is about personal choice in fashion, not mob rule, and certainly not Bob's personal fashion preferences.
Previously, many Bravehearts didn't want to associate with Freestylers, and they left for that reason --- many of the "Braveheart only" boards explain that they are NOT welcoming to men who want to wear skirts other than kilts. It makes me sad that we would segment ourselves to that extent. As Rev. Martin Niemoller said:
"First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me. "
As always, mutual respect and support is an important part of the SkirtCafe experience.
HOWEVER: I do not feel there should be any express or implied pressure on Bravehearts to wear other skirts. There is no "progression" from dark-colored kilts to flamboyant polka-dotted skirts, nor are Freestylers better or worse than Bravehearts. Everyone is entitled to their choice in fashion, based on who they are and what makes them comfortable. This forum is about personal choice in fashion, not mob rule, and certainly not Bob's personal fashion preferences.
Previously, many Bravehearts didn't want to associate with Freestylers, and they left for that reason --- many of the "Braveheart only" boards explain that they are NOT welcoming to men who want to wear skirts other than kilts. It makes me sad that we would segment ourselves to that extent. As Rev. Martin Niemoller said:
"First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me. "
As always, mutual respect and support is an important part of the SkirtCafe experience.
What is all this talk about Bravehearts, or "kilt wearers" being pressured to wear other skirts?
At least I am very glad to hear that no one is pressurised to wear any sort of skirt. ( how could someone be pressurised to?)
It's like being a member of an auto club. All makes and types, with innevitably groups therin, with their makes being "holy". But the club stimulates only friendly competition, respect, and unbiased vieuws. No rivallary between car makes and no suggestion as to any specifik make or model to be had.
Not by me. I think that if something is written, which I do from time to time, is that I at least try to address men who from them selves are more creative than they show. Meaning that they "hide" once they have made the first step to wear a skirt, often being a neutral skirt. I wish to stimulate all men who even though they are wearing a skirt, get stuck there, being scared to step out of the "manly" image of a man in a skirt.
The skirt choice is not an issue here. It is the fear of stepping out of the box around the box they have just stepped out of.
There is nothing wrong with any skirt worn by any man. But addressing the hesitance from men who actually for themselves should go further than the first step is something else, and that should in no way be "pressurising" any others.
My own thought is that on this forum, men wearing skirts is the topic. Under that are several directions men take that. One of them is the choice of the traditional and very nice kilt. One thing is very clear here, Your choice is your choice. No discussion. There is a discussion when somebody says "is this too feminine" or something like that, actually saying, I like that more colourfull clothing, but I don't dare to openly admit to it and wear it. That is realising that you as an individual appreciate other fashion, clothing than you had to accept before you stood up and rebelled. Then I would try to help in discussion, talking about accepting who you really are, what you really like, despite the vieuws that are lingering in your head that were stamped in there before by the pants lobby.
The kilt has a following, as has the denim skirt, and other skirts. The kilt being a culture on it's own, with corresponding clothing that makes a kilt historically correct. That is great!
Just as wearing other than normally as manly accepted skirts need corresponding clothing, often not found or difficult to find in men's stores.
"Colourful" clothing choices made when wearing skirts are just that. That is called freestyling.
I myself am a freestyler, but just love the kilt alone and in its compleet correct dress, with blouses, jackets, socks and even shoes.
I really don't see where or how there is any pressure possible to kilt wearers. It is a choice of skirt, and a choice to follow even with the culture it is bound with.
I think the Braveheart "club"is a good thing, and possibly needed to blow new life in the kilt wearing scene. But the kilt is also one of many skirts, and a man in a kilt is a man in a skirt. And all men in skirts are equal on this forum, by the skirt they wear and by their choice.
Peter v
At least I am very glad to hear that no one is pressurised to wear any sort of skirt. ( how could someone be pressurised to?)
It's like being a member of an auto club. All makes and types, with innevitably groups therin, with their makes being "holy". But the club stimulates only friendly competition, respect, and unbiased vieuws. No rivallary between car makes and no suggestion as to any specifik make or model to be had.
Not by me. I think that if something is written, which I do from time to time, is that I at least try to address men who from them selves are more creative than they show. Meaning that they "hide" once they have made the first step to wear a skirt, often being a neutral skirt. I wish to stimulate all men who even though they are wearing a skirt, get stuck there, being scared to step out of the "manly" image of a man in a skirt.
The skirt choice is not an issue here. It is the fear of stepping out of the box around the box they have just stepped out of.
There is nothing wrong with any skirt worn by any man. But addressing the hesitance from men who actually for themselves should go further than the first step is something else, and that should in no way be "pressurising" any others.
My own thought is that on this forum, men wearing skirts is the topic. Under that are several directions men take that. One of them is the choice of the traditional and very nice kilt. One thing is very clear here, Your choice is your choice. No discussion. There is a discussion when somebody says "is this too feminine" or something like that, actually saying, I like that more colourfull clothing, but I don't dare to openly admit to it and wear it. That is realising that you as an individual appreciate other fashion, clothing than you had to accept before you stood up and rebelled. Then I would try to help in discussion, talking about accepting who you really are, what you really like, despite the vieuws that are lingering in your head that were stamped in there before by the pants lobby.
The kilt has a following, as has the denim skirt, and other skirts. The kilt being a culture on it's own, with corresponding clothing that makes a kilt historically correct. That is great!
Just as wearing other than normally as manly accepted skirts need corresponding clothing, often not found or difficult to find in men's stores.
"Colourful" clothing choices made when wearing skirts are just that. That is called freestyling.
I myself am a freestyler, but just love the kilt alone and in its compleet correct dress, with blouses, jackets, socks and even shoes.
I really don't see where or how there is any pressure possible to kilt wearers. It is a choice of skirt, and a choice to follow even with the culture it is bound with.
I think the Braveheart "club"is a good thing, and possibly needed to blow new life in the kilt wearing scene. But the kilt is also one of many skirts, and a man in a kilt is a man in a skirt. And all men in skirts are equal on this forum, by the skirt they wear and by their choice.
Peter v
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
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AMM
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For the most part, I think that most people here are pretty tolerant: those who prefer to stick to kilts or more "masculine" skirts co-exist peacefully with those who dress more flambouyantly/adventurously. But every now and then, a post or two crops up which suggests that one approach is better (more advanced, or whatever) than the other, and pretty soon tempers flare.Peter v wrote:What is all this talk about Bravehearts, or "kilt wearers" being pressured to wear other skirts?
Those who've been on the receiving end of such posts -- or feel they have -- tend to be a bit sensitive. Because of this, it's important to chose one's words carefully and avoid appearing to disparage someone else's clothing choices, even unintentionally.
For one "braveheart's" take on the split, look at http://www.kiltmen.com.
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Since1982
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Braveheart the Movie
I sorta get a kick out of using "Braveheart" to describe Kilt wearers. That movie was really stinky in the historical dept. William Wallace was a lowlander, not a kilt wearing highlander. Even in the movie there's reference made to "The highlanders are coming down from the mountains to join us" Wallace wore a wrapped wool garment, but no clan tartan colors like in the movie, just a plain colored one, sort of like the Irish wore in that time period, the Irish wore plain green wraps, and the lowland Scots wore various shades of light brown to reddish/green, blends in with the trees and land when hunting a buck. My last name is Fraser, it's a highland surname. Wallace, is a lowland surname. Look it up under Scottish surnames. I did. The statue of William Wallace in Scotland has him wearing a non-kilt type garment. Look it up. 
By the way, when I say "kilt" I'm referring to the garment worn by Highland Scots from around 1100 to the late 1800's. It's atypical with a certain color pattern, called a "tartan" and connected with the various clan surnames. There were the "Great kilt" or "breacan" and the "little kilt" which is the one commonly associated with modern Scottish highlanders.
By the way, when I say "kilt" I'm referring to the garment worn by Highland Scots from around 1100 to the late 1800's. It's atypical with a certain color pattern, called a "tartan" and connected with the various clan surnames. There were the "Great kilt" or "breacan" and the "little kilt" which is the one commonly associated with modern Scottish highlanders.
Last edited by Since1982 on Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I had to remove this signature as it was being used on Twitter. This is my OPINION, you NEEDN'T AGREE.
Story of Life, Perspire, Expire, Funeral Pyre!I've been skirted part time since 1972 and full time since 2005. http://skirts4men.myfreeforum.org/
Story of Life, Perspire, Expire, Funeral Pyre!I've been skirted part time since 1972 and full time since 2005. http://skirts4men.myfreeforum.org/
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Hang on a minute, old chap! Kilts are also an evolving species, too! Even some of the diehard (so-called) 'traditional' Kilt-wearers (see X Marks the Scot, if you must!) acknowledge that the garment now has many variants, fabrics and styles. As for the strictly 'formal' garb, which most folk believe is 'traditional', it had its roots in the court of Queen Victoria, rather than Scotland!Peter v wrote: What is all this talk about Bravehearts, or "kilt wearers" being pressured to wear other skirts?
The kilt has a following, as has the denim skirt, and other skirts. The kilt being a culture on it's own, with corresponding clothing that makes a kilt historically correct. That is great!
I myself am a freestyler, but just love the kilt alone and in its compleet correct dress, with blouses, jackets, socks and even shoes.
Peter v
Looking at the kiltmen.com site, I would say that the similarities between Bravehearts and SkirtCafe-type Freestylers are much greater than the differences. Kiltmen Bravehearts never wear anything specifically designed for women, whereas SkirtCafe Freestylers are willing to do so. However, both ultimately present a masculine image, and neither one is into crossdressing.
So it seems (from my point of view) that Bravehearts will be willing to wear a skirt (or even tights?) once SkirtCafe types have worked out the fashion kinks and produced a version of it for men. Hence Midas Clothing, Anders Landiger, Comfilon, etc.
So does this mean that the real difference is who is on the leading edge vs. the trailing edge of a trend? Am I missing something here?
So it seems (from my point of view) that Bravehearts will be willing to wear a skirt (or even tights?) once SkirtCafe types have worked out the fashion kinks and produced a version of it for men. Hence Midas Clothing, Anders Landiger, Comfilon, etc.
So does this mean that the real difference is who is on the leading edge vs. the trailing edge of a trend? Am I missing something here?
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crfriend
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This is one of the things that always got my goat: "Freestylers" and "Bravehearts" are more alike than different, and yet there was still a substantial amount of sniping that went on (and, it seems, still does). That sniping is meaningless and destructive to both sides and ultimately helpful to neither.Looking at the kiltmen.com site, I would say that the similarities between Bravehearts and SkirtCafe-type Freestylers are much greater than the differences.
I'm not sure that "leading edge"/"trailing edge" is the best way to put it. Certainly freestylers are more "adventurous" in what they're willing to try whereas the braveheart faction is content with established looks, garments, and trends. In this context, yes, the freestylers are pushing the boundaries (sometimes hard enough to make the bravehearts nervous), but that will eventually be to everyone's benefit; witness the arrival of non-traditional kilts in solid colours and "new" fabrics, for instance. That would not have happened without someone shoving up against the boundaries and using some imagination.So does this mean that the real difference is who is on the leading edge vs. the trailing edge of a trend? Am I missing something here?
Personally, I'd like to see more effort go into expanding the range of fabrics that it's "acceptable" for a guy to be seen in; the seeming constant focus on denim bothers me a bit. Why shouldn't a guy be seen in velvet or silk? Even flowing silk trousers would make for a nice break with what's available now (think an updated version of the "palazzo" style that was popular in the '90s but reworked to work with a man's body type). How about lace as a trim at the collar or cuffs?
In reading over the http://www.kiltmen.com site I was perplexed somewhat by some of the phraseology used. On the one hand, they're supporting the notion of getting out of trousers, yet on the other hand restricting things to narrow boxes. In particular, I found http://www.kiltmen.com/freestyle.htm distressing because it overloads the notion of freestyle with various ideals that most of us here don't subscribe to. The text may be an echo from the past, but it's still a disturbing reminder that tolerance may not be universal. If the two factions can't resolve the differences then the tension is holding everything back.
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