pumps and money

[Peter v]

I was wearing for the first time, pumps with high heels (8cm at rear of shoe) with my long black men's over coat, a knee length grey and black silk floral skirt, black tights.
I was on my bycicle, and window shopping after closing time in town.
There were two teenagers, boys, and as I passed, one asked me a question, so I returned, feeling not threatened. One said to the other, you owe me 12 euro's. The teener said, he had said that he saw a man in heels, and the other didn't beleive him, and agreed on a wager. He lost.

I had visited a ware house which had a special extra opening time between 18.00 and 21.00 hours with slashed price actions. It wasn't so busy, but I did notice some people looking at me, probably because of my heels. There was no problem. I enjoyed it. Although my feet don't fit snugly in the heels, so I have to be extra alert how I walk.

Being dressed as I was, I am always very careful where I go and near whom I pass. This was quite interesting, as they didn't mention the skirt but asked why I wore pumps, so I they're not super to walk in, but it's fun, and they make the rest look right. I'm not really into high heels, but they do look good with skirts. (not higher than max 9 cm at rear of shoe is more than enough. )

Peter v

[SkirtedViking]

Totally agree with you about pumps and other high heel shoes.They are part of fashion equality and look good with skirts and tops also. All women have the social freedom of wearing all so called men's styles of clothes,shoes,accessories without any scorn - so should we.

[crfriend]

All women have the social freedom of wearing all so called men's styles of clothes,shoes,accessories without any scorn - so should we.

You know, lads, we seem to belabour this point to the extent that it seems like whining (and I've been guilty of that here), and I think that that detracts from the message that we should be sending: that WE, as men, can wear what we see fit, and should actively assert our rights to do so.

There's no percentage to be gained in whimpering about how repressed we are if we're not manly enough to assert our right to equality. This time it's not about power, it's not about domination, and it's not about subjugation -- it's about choice, it's about equality in its purest sense, and, in this context, it's about what we feel like covering our nether-bits in.

Peter v -- That was a good story. Hopefully everybody involved got a good laugh out of it and parted with the best of intents. Laughing about something is frequently the first step in actually thinking about something. Humour is important (and a good sense of humour even more so).

[SkirtedViking]

I rather stated a fact and maybe you are right it might be seen as whimpering since I've stated this many times before.

[sapphire]

You wrote

"All women have the social freedom of wearing all so called men's styles of clothes,shoes,accessories without any scorn"

This is NOT fact. There are parts of the world and some cultures where women are put to death for wearing men's clothing.

[sapphire]

Peter v,
Your outfit sounds delightful, quite urban and sophisticated.

What were you wearing on top: shirt, blouse, t-shirt? Color?

[Peter v]

Peter v,
Your outfit sounds delightful, quite urban and sophisticated.

What were you wearing on top: shirt, blouse, t-shirt? Color?

Hallo Saphire, I do try to look the part, and I like the sophisticated look. I was wearing a gray roll neck sweater. In the winter I now wear with that skirt mostly a roll neck sweater in black, grey or warm carmine red, but also white, as long as they are body hugging, and so flattering to the look, with a tank top underneath for warmth. I try to emulate some womens fashion, as it really looks good, and good on me. But there again, men and women wear roll neck sweaters, so that's niether femme or mannly, but having sleek body hugging clothes with attention to details may be called femme. Following a tried and proven recipe is a good way to start and to learn. Wearing a beautiful skirt with slobby men's clothing is just not done.

Having a hairy body and so a hairy chest and arms has disadvantages, when wanting to dress as freely as women, enjoying some of the more attractive clothes that women often use, quite often with deep v necks and bare arms. This is a disadvantage when wearing nice open blouses, and bare arms as women do. Women tend to clothe themselves barely, showing their beautiful smoothe skin, on their arms, chest and back. They have a very open way of clothing themselves, and they can, it's beautiful to see, where as men do their best to hide themselves. But with all that hair it's no wonder. I do shave my neck and breast, so that when I do wear a shirt, I wear the collar open. Also women's blouses are made to be worn open, and are styled for that, which I find much nicer than men's shirts. But there again, women's shirts mostly don't fit men, around the girth of the shoulders and the arms. Of course they are not made to fit men. But the styling is just great.

I do have a nice vermilion colour V neck vest, with buttons half way the front for effect, and I wear shirts or black or white t shirts under that. Also looks very nice.

I wear different necklaces, with matching earings and bracelets when I can.
I wear a long necklace with facetted black beads, and matching arm band and earings. But also a neclace with bright blue and transparent stones, which I am trying to find suitable earings and armband for.

Along with the black coat, I also wear different shawls, a white shawl, or a long Pashmir shawl, with deep red and rape yellow coloured patterns, just a luxurious feeling.

I get compliments on a regular basis from many women I meet in largely women's stores, both clients as well as shop worksters/ owners. I also often ask for true opinions as to the right combination when I am thinking about buying something.

I'm not a travi, but I do like femme fashion, sleek, complimentary clothing that can probably not be found easily in men's wear.

Must get a digital camera and get some pictures sent.

Peter v.

[sapphire]

WOW Peter,
Thanks for sharing so much.

It seems like you have a well developed sense of style. Bravo!

[AMM]

All women have the social freedom of wearing all so called men's styles of clothes,shoes,accessories without any scorn - so should we.

I've seen quite a statements posted here (by men) and they really bother me.

First of all, I don't think it's true, at least not in the simplistic way stated: even here in the USA, my understanding is that women don't find that they can really dress any way they like without consequences. But it seems to me that, as there are folks "of the female persuasion" reading and posting here, it's a little arrogant for us men to be telling them what they find they can and can't wear "without any scorn." Maybe we should ask them.

In order to make this relevant to men's fashion (isn't that what SkirtCafe is about?), I'll point out that if men achieve true "fashion equality" to women, that may mean that we will find ourselves in situations where we are required to shave our legs and put on sheer pantyhose and high heels, and wear revealing clothes.
I think I'll pass, thank you!

But the main part of this statement that bothers me is that it sounds like "they won't let me do what I want and it's unfair."

If what is meant by this statement is that men can't wear skirts, heels, etc., it's just plain not true, at least not in the USA or most places that members of SkirtCafe live. Numerous posters here have described wearing all manner of "non-masculine" clothes out and about, with nobody arresting them, or assaulting them, and actually very little in the way of negative comments. Or go to crossdressers.com, you'll see the same story told by Orthodox Crossdressers(tm).

On the other hand, if what is meant is that people will stare at you more than you are used to, or your girlfriend may object, or your drinking buddies will give you a hard time, or your boss may ask you to change your clothes if you wear them to work, or you won't be able to win an election if it's widely known -- well, that's what you face when you try to change things. If you want to see what real social disapproval is like, try being against segregation in the South in the '50s, or being against the Vietnam war (or having long hair) in most parts of the USA in the '60s, or bringing a black friend home in certain parts of Yonkers, NY in the past decade. People these days are positively welcoming of men in skirts by comparison.

Is it fair? Well, maybe not. But, as my mother used to say far too often, life's not fair. And it's up to those who think something isn't fair to do something about it. Not just complain about it.

[SkirtedViking]

First of all,let me explain that I meant by "all women" the so called Western Civilization.So it is proper to correct me.I shave my body and also have e long beard so shaving is not an issue for me. In my country I have seen women even with men's suits, and yes I wear whatever I please but I am offended by people, while women don't . I am called gay, insane etc. for being a fighter for equality while women do not encounter such things while wearing trousers,t-shirts,flat shoes and so on.I just wanted to express my grief,that's all.

[Milfmog]

I just wanted to express my grief,that's all.

And I thought Vikings were tough guys

Simply, anyone can wear anything they want provided they meet the local expectations of decency, however if you look significantly different from the majority you must expect to attract some attention. In all honesty most people will ignore (or not notice) anything out of the ordinary unless you are very radical, but some will see you and will comment. Most comments are positive but an occasional insult may be directed at you.

All the above applies equally to men and women in all cultures (remember the note about "local expectations" above). If women have more fashion freedom* it is because as a group they have exercised their choices over time so that they now have a wider range of expected styles, at least in most western societies.

Over the last few weeks there have been many "it's not fair" posts here but far fewer posts saying what forum members have chosen to wear or how they are slowly trying to accustom people in their locale to the sight of a man in a skirt. Perhaps there's a lesson there somewhere...

Have fun,


Ian.

PS: The above is not a dig at any individual (or even at any particular Viking ), just a statement of how things look to me.

* Perhaps that should be "choice" rather than "freedom" - any ladies care to comment?


Edited to correct spelling error, Milfmog.

[crfriend]

I've seen quite a statements posted here (by men) and they really bother me.

First of all, I don't think it's true, at least not in the simplistic way stated: even here in the USA, my understanding is that women don't find that they can really dress any way they like without consequences. But it seems to me that, as there are folks "of the female persuasion" reading and posting here, it's a little arrogant for us men to be telling them what they find they can and can't wear "without any scorn." Maybe we should ask them.

Sapphire and I have spent some time chatting about this facet in our offline lives (yes, we have them) and it looks like it comes down to the life experience that each of us brings to the table.

Sapphire "has a few years on me" and has experienced, first hand, things that I have not; she was in on the tail end of highly repressive dress codes and vicious stereotyping that just never went on in any place I've ever been or seen. So, from her perspective, the "women have always had the freedom to wear what they want" is both incorrect and, given the contexts of her life experience sometimes offensive. I, on the other hand, never witnessed those events or participated in the environments; some of her descriptions and recollections came as a bit of a shock that so much could change in so few years; based on my life experience my perception is vastly closer to the one all too frequently espoused here. I've known women that virtually never wore anything other than trousers, and tended to freeze when faced with skirts -- not that that's equality or "freedom", mind you.

So, here's two people, living in the same household, with very different views, and, if occasionally painful, some of the threads here at SkirtCafe have opened up new avenues of communication between us.

In order to make this relevant to men's fashion (isn't that what SkirtCafe is about?), I'll point out that if men achieve true "fashion equality" to women, that may mean that we will find ourselves in situations where we are required to shave our legs and put on sheer pantyhose and high heels, and wear revealing clothes.
I think I'll pass, thank you!

That is your prerogative, and nobody should be able to take that from you, nor, I suspect, would anyone here. We all have our own aesthetic and sense of style, and that does not necessarily transfer from one man to another.

But the main part of this statement that bothers me is that it sounds like "they won't let me do what I want and it's unfair."

That's what provoked me to post my "Stop Whining" response. Bellyaching about "how unfair" the system is will not make one iota of difference in how the system functions -- only by actively asserting one's rights can one change the system.

On the other hand, if what is meant is that people will stare at you more than you are used to, or your girlfriend may object, or your drinking buddies will give you a hard time, or your boss may ask you to change your clothes if you wear them to work, or you won't be able to win an election if it's widely known -- well, that's what you face when you try to change things.

I'd go almost as far as saying, "If your drinking buddies don't give you a little grief then you may need new ones." By giving you grief, they're admitting that they at least noticed, and the ball is back in your court to "defend your decision" (rather like defending one's thesis in the face of criticism); this can be a very healthy thing as you're amongst friends instead of possibly really nasty adversaries. As far as situations at work may go, I tend to leave well enough alone on that count; I'll keep my skirt-wearing for off-hours, thank you very much. It's not worth the possible grief I might get. I don't hide it, but I don't flaunt it, either. The case of the girlfriend, though, is saddest; moreover, it's usually the shallowest. You may have to deal with a lot of grief if you start wearing skirts (although, for the most part, it doesn't seem to be the case in the "real world"), and some of that will require forceful logical argument and reason to disarm the detractor; the question here, might be put, "How do we convince by rational argument that skirt-wearing is not "abnormal" (with all the baggage that term carries with it), and that we're precisely the same person no matter what we're wearing?"

If you want to see what real social disapproval is like, try being against segregation in the South in the '50s, or being against the Vietnam war (or having long hair) in most parts of the USA in the '60s, or bringing a black friend home in certain parts of Yonkers, NY in the past decade. People these days are positively welcoming of men in skirts by comparison.

This is life experience speaking very powerfully and eloquently. It also show up just precisely how trivial our common pursuit here is by comparison. That makes it important to pass along, so that others may have benefit of it even if they never lived it.

[AMM]

In order to make this relevant to men's fashion (isn't that what SkirtCafe is about?), I'll point out that if men achieve true "fashion equality" to women, that may mean that we will find ourselves in situations where we are required to shave our legs and put on sheer pantyhose and high heels, and wear revealing clothes.
I think I'll pass, thank you!

That is your prerogative, and nobody should be able to take that from you, nor, I suspect, would anyone here. We all have our own aesthetic and sense of style, and that does not necessarily transfer from one man to another.

I'm glad that you see that it should be my prerogative to opt out. However, in the real world, all too often "allowed" turns into "required."

Many posters here seem to miss the point that the supposed fashion "freedoms" that they are envying women for are actually all too often fashion tyrannies. To those women who are required to shave their legs, wear fragile pantyhose, walk in high heels, etc., every day, whether they like it or not, and regardless of whether it's comfortable or how much damage it does to them, just to keep their jobs (yes, I know a number of women in this position), it must be pretty galling to hear men tell them how "priviledged" they are to be "allowed" to dress this way.

[SkirtedViking]

You misunderstood me.All I meant is that anyone should have the freedom to wear what he/she pleases without negative attitude of others.The women that always have to wear heels and whatever you menitioned that they find uncomfortable are not too many.Most of them do not have to wear that all the time.My point is that men should be considered men without the macho stuff (and choose for themselves whether just a skirt,or with heels,etc, suits them and in what combinations) that many of us find so important. If you want to be a macho be one. And I am very so called maculine man in physical appearance, got even a nice beard and still get offended as being a gay ( I am totally straight),insane and so on.

[sapphire]

How frequently have you been taunted? I know it is very hurtful, but you must perservere.

If you don't perservere, you will never achieve what you are seeking.