"Orthodox" CD and gender roles

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AMM
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"Orthodox" CD and gender roles

Post by AMM »

Before I found Tom's Cafe, before I saw men wearing skirts at contra dances, I would lurk in crossdressing newsgroups and on crossdressing sites. And something always bothered me about them, but I have never been able to be clear in my mind as to exactly what it is.

This posting is my attempt to put into words the rather muddled point I am in my thinking about it.

The thing that strikes me most at this point about "orthodox" crossdressers -- the people who post on crossdressers.com, or alt.support.crossdressing, etc. -- is that they seem to me to be acting out almost a parody of society's notion of femininity.

I've more or less grown up being exposed to feminist ideas, which I've taken to because their critiques of female gender roles mirror my own complaints about society's male roles.
I notice that many of the things about the feminine role that seem to fascinate these CD'ers are the things that feminist thinking ties in with dis-empowerment of women or oppression.


Some of the things I see:
  • CD'ers expressing themselves in a sort of giggly, gushy "girly" way, including referring to one another as "girls". It seems to me to express "don't take me seriously, I'm just a silly girl." This reflects the idea that feminine women aren't really grown-ups.
  • CD'ers fascination for bras, pantyhose, high heels, make-up, and shaving body hair. For women, these are connected with the expectation that a woman's body is not acceptable as it is, she has to hide it or modify it before she can be seen in public. (I know many women who feel ashamed if anyone sees them without their make-up on, even at the gym.) High heels in particular damage the body, but I've talked with many women who say they have to wear them for work.

    Interestingly, while bras, wigs, pantyhose, etc., seem to be essential to orthodox CD'ing, dresses and skirts are not. As women have shifted over to wearing only pants and shorts, so have CD'ers.
  • One magazine article that was copied to one CD website described going on a CD'ing cruise, and the reporter noticed that most of the CD'ers were what we in the US would call conservative, Republican men. I've noticed a fair amount of hostility to feminism and feminist ideas in CD circles, and little sympathy.

    I've also seen the complaint among wives and SOs of CD'ers that, although CD'ers talk about getting in touch with their feminine selves, this doesn't seem to make them any more empathic with the women in their lives. Sometimes their obsession with CD'ing makes them even less considerate that the average male.
  • The overwhelming majority of orthodox CD'ers refer to themselves (at least while CD'ing) with women's names.

My theory at this point is that orthodox CD'ing -- pretending to be a women part of the time, and dressing and acting like a man the rest of the time -- is a way for a man to deal with his own discomfort with traditional gender roles, without having to challenge those roles.

By temporarily being a woman, including changing their name, they get to act out all those things that they envy in the feminine role that they aren't allowed (and would not allow themselves) to do as men. The "feminine self" that they get in touch with is their fantasy of the priviledges they think women have. They can ignore the disadvantages of being a woman, including the discomforts inherent in the things they like about femininity, because they can return to being men whenever they want.

Note that the kilt websites also don't challenge gender roles. Indeed, a constant theme is finding ways to prove your manhood while/despite wearing a kilt. ("I'm a man, I say it's a kilt and not a bloody skirt, and I'll prove it by pounding anyone to a pulp who doesn't agree with me.") The testosterone levels at "X marks the Scot" and "kiltmen" can be a little suffocating.

In this respect, what we do here is more radical and more of a challenge to society than even the most extreme CD'er or drag queen.

It may also explain why there are hundreds of websites, businesses, bars, etc., that cater to CD'ers, but only a few small, struggling businesses (and a few websites) for men who want to wear "feminine" clothing without trying to pass for women. CD'ers can take their roles "off the rack", while we are more or less having to make it up for ourselves. CD'ers are dealing with known quantities, and can follow well-trodden paths. What we are doing is much harder: each of us blazing our own trail, and dealing with all the dead ends, back tracking, and brush clearing that that involves.



This still leaves me with the question: why am I doing this?

My analyst (everyone in the NYC area has an analyst, just ask Woody Allen :) ) thinks it has to do with my mother.

But then I remember a feminist writing something like this:
conventional wisdom has it that when a girl climbs a tree, she's trying to prove she's as good as a boy. But maybe she just likes to climb trees.
Maybe I just like skirts and petticoats (and other flouncy, frilly, silky, etc., things.)

And don't want to have to pretend to be someone else in order to do it.

-- AMM
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Post by Steven »

Something I said about myself a long time ago (in about as many words)

Steven
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Post by The Satirist »

I couldn't agree more!
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Post by me012247 »

Well...I like skirts and slips and I wear them almost every day. I don't want to be a "female" and I don't use a female name however, I like fashion freedom and ceratinly I will experiment with more "female" clothes like panties, bra and hose
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Boobs

Post by Since1982 »

Ummm, Why would you want to wear a bra? Do you have boobs????? Bras are nearly exclusively women's wear, except for the few men with extreme gynecomastia. Maybe you "should" hunt out TS/TG/TV/CD/exhibitionist sites...
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Post by Departed Member »

I'm with Skip, here. There's no reason why anyone shouldn't wear panties and bras (not sure what 'hose' means in the US - I tend to think of long socks, here), if they really want too - that's their personal choice. If the intention is to 'expose' such apparel in public, though, then I think that goes beyond the criteria of this website, by a massive margin.
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A leg up?

Post by bob striks »

I think AMM has some very interesting and good insights into the often contentious split between “orthodox” Cd’ers and men in skirts. I only recently found the men in skirts community and the only place I had to try to find a voice was within the local CD’ers community. I have often been greeted with greater hostility from Cd’ers then the general community. As time has gone by I think I have come to a better understanding as to why this happens. I think Cd’ers often feel that men in skirts drag down their efforts to be excepted by society, which to me is ironic since it is the same view that they so despise when they are on the receiving end from the homosexual community. Anyway, it seems that when fighting for freedoms it is important not to push the other guy down so you can get a leg up.
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Post by me012247 »

Well, skip, YOU wear bras, so why I can't wear a bra ???
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Gynecomastia

Post by Since1982 »

Me0, I have gynecomastia, do you? And I only wear it if the pain in my chest is too hard to handle without it. Which is about a half dozen times a year. Never for show or to look feminine. Check out Relevant website deleted thanks to Google
I had to remove this signature as it was being used on Twitter. This is my OPINION, you NEEDN'T AGREE.

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Gynecomastia

Post by me012247 »

Since1982 wrote:... I have gynecomastia, do you?
I have that condition too...Mine look like Butch's in your link..Satisfied ??
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Post by taosit »

AMM wrote: seem to me to be acting out almost a parody of society's notion of femininity.


. . . It seems to me to express "don't take me seriously, I'm just a silly girl." This reflects the idea that feminine women aren't really grown-ups.

. . . this doesn't seem to make them any more empathic with the women in their lives. Sometimes their obsession with CD'ing makes them even less considerate that the average male.

What I've gotten from my transgender reading (CD/TS) is that this is not an uncommon phenomnenon, that many behave in a stereotypical teenage girl manner; that there is a maturation process. Unfortunately some of us never mature regardless of our gender or roles (that being said, my favorite response to "how old are you?" is "old enough to know better, young enough not to care!")
What we are doing is much harder: each of us blazing our own trail, and dealing with all the dead ends, back tracking, and brush clearing that that involves.
. . . My analyst (everyone in the NYC area has an analyst, just ask Woody Allen :) ) thinks it has to do with my mother.
Yes, isn't it easier when there is some pathology to blame it on? I sometimes wonder if the psych profession thinks beyond the boxes they trained in.

Maybe I just like skirts and petticoats (and other flouncy, frilly, silky, etc., things.)

And don't want to have to pretend to be someone else in order to do it.
Right on! It's a choice because I have a preference, a like, that I don' fret over justifying or anaylzing. It's something that does no harm (people are responsible for their own reactions), though I am mindful that it wouldn't be a good idea at this point for work attire and there are other environments where it would not be, uh, safe or conducive to good relations. It's just a matter of preference and style (I prefer style over fashion, it is more enduring and provides a closer match to the individual; sometimes fashion just happens to match my style).

Good points, all, AMM, and I also share a more feminist view.

cheers,
tao
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Me012247

Post by Since1982 »

I noticed you removed your picture avatar, too late, I've seen your picture. Unless you're strapping something down you're as flat chested as the average male. I'm not going to get into any arguments about this, if you want to present yourself as a very fem exhibitionist man, that's your business, I just think you're at the wrong site.:confused:
I had to remove this signature as it was being used on Twitter. This is my OPINION, you NEEDN'T AGREE.

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I've been skirted part time since 1972 and full time since 2005. http://skirts4men.myfreeforum.org/
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Well..well

Post by me012247 »

:clap: I am more then happy to leave..Guys like you believe everything is acceptable as long as it belongs to them..not to others.
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Post by Bob »

If you're not already aware of it, you might enjoy the Atrium:

http://grevstad.org/cgi-bin/atrium.pl
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Post by WSmac »

WOW! I came to this late.

I agree that AMM's comments are really good reading.

What's the problem with me012247 though?
Actually, I don't mean he has a problem, rather some other folks here have a problem.

I read his comments about skirts and slips and then bras, panties and hose (I think he means pantyhose?).

After I read that, I kept on reading the other posts.

I didn't give his post a second thought.

WHY?

Because he just mentioned he would "...certainly experiment with them...", that's all.
I find nothing offensive about his comments.
I like knowing that he was comfortable enough to mention these.
I never thought he should be lectured about his comments or driven off this website.

I really believe you guys might read his post over again and see that it was really nothing that deserved the pointed remarks he got.

Just my opinion...:think:
WSmac
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