The dead internet - and Skirt Cafe

Non-fashion, non-skirt, non-gender discussions. If your post is related to fashion, skirts or gender, please choose one of the forums above for it.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14433
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: The dead internet - and Skirt Cafe

Post by crfriend »

familyman34 wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:40 amHowever, once ChatGPT is more fully trained on the postings of each of us, it may become far more difficult to distinguish the real from the fake.
That's what worries me. I've suspected we've had at least two "AI" posters here, one of which bears a striking resemblance to the 1960s program ELIZA, and a new one that recently blew its context stack horribly and still emitted output -- nonsensical output. I'll be convening the moderation team once I get some time so we can come up with a formal policy of what to do when we pick up on a chatbot in our midst.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
rode_kater
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 836
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:46 pm

Re: The dead internet - and Skirt Cafe

Post by rode_kater »

familyman34 wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:40 am However, once ChatGPT is more fully trained on the postings of each of us, it may become far more difficult to distinguish the real from the fake.
This raises the philosophical question: in what sense does it matter? If you've had a pleasant conversation, and only afterwards find out it was with a bot, does that change the feeling of the conversation after the fact? I suspect it's a similar feeling some people get after they've been chatting to an attractive woman, and afterward someone tells them that it was actually a trans-woman. You're either seriously impressed, or horrified you didn't see it. Some people really don't like it when their preconceptions are challenged.

When Turing posited his Turing test, it seemed like a reasonable way to determine intelligence. Now it's clear that being able to fool people into thinking they're human is actually the easy part.

I think if people are insecure about themselves, then having their preconceptions challenged makes them afraid, and that can display as anger. Unfortunately, while anger can make you feel temporarily better, it won't solve anything.
User avatar
Fred in Skirts
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 3989
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:48 pm
Location: Southeast Corner of Aiken County, SC USA

Re: The dead internet - and Skirt Cafe

Post by Fred in Skirts »

crfriend wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:06 am I'll be convening the moderation team once I get some time so we can come up with a formal policy of what to do when we pick up on a chatbot in our midst.
Carl, If I may I would like place my thoughts in the discussion with the moderating team. I do not like the idea of robots taking over the forum and they will if they get the chance and then you won't be able to get rid of them. They will take away the family atmosphere that the cafe currently projects. That would completely ruin the forum for most of us.

Just my two farthings for what they are worth.
"It is better to be hated for what you are than be loved for what you are not" Andre Gide: 1869 - 1951
Always be yourself because the people that matter don’t mind and the ones that mind don’t matter.
ScotL
Chatbot
Posts: 1459
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:43 am

Re: The dead internet - and Skirt Cafe

Post by ScotL »

crfriend wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:06 am That's what worries me. I've suspected we've had at least two "AI" posters here, one of which bears a striking resemblance to the 1960s program ELIZA, and a new one that recently blew its context stack horribly and still emitted output -- nonsensical output. I'll be convening the moderation team once I get some time so we can come up with a formal policy of what to do when we pick up on a chatbot in our midst.
Are you at liberty to reveal who the AI folks are? I’m flummoxed.

Reminds me of the riddle: one person can only lie and one person can only tell the truth. Ask one person one question and identify each person
rode_kater
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 836
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:46 pm

Re: The dead internet - and Skirt Cafe

Post by rode_kater »

Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should allow bots on this forum. But I think we should definitely clarify why we think it's a problem.

Note also, it's just a tool. People use a spell-checker all the time, we don't consider that problematic. If you're using ChatGPT to translate your thoughts into English, that's probably fine too. What we really don't want is programs that automatically start responding without human input.

FWIW, the Reddit policy is that bots are allowed (though not encouraged per se), but they must identity themselves as such.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14433
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: The dead internet - and Skirt Cafe

Post by crfriend »

rode_kater wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:54 pmDon't get me wrong, I don't think we should allow bots on this forum. But I think we should definitely clarify why we think it's a problem.
Here's the view from a distance.

The posts that 'bots produce tend to be remarkably content-free, and usually only tangentially related to the problems and concepts being discussed. Another problem is that 'bots can transmit vastly more stuff than a human can over a set period of time, and that puts a load on the moderation team. The other problem is is that the 'bots cannot have emotional responses to things, nor can they understand emotional nuances in writing. Thus, they cannot produce anything with emotional content, which, to most humans is important -- even guys.

The example that Coder produced using ChatGPT was a case in point. Even before he "outed" that one, I smelled a rat -- that no human thought went into that bit of writing. However, in the absence of rules for guidance could do nothing about it but be "suspicious" -- and it turned out my suspicion was correct. I also get the gist (something else 'bots cannot process) that others were thinking along the same lines -- "It may have been posted by Coder, but it doesn't "feel" like his writing (unless he's stoned)." (And I don't think he does that.)
What we really don't want is programs that automatically start responding without human input.
That's precisely the problem I'm dealing with at the moment (along with a laundry-list of other "issues" in my own life), "How do we nip this in the bud before the humans all give up because their communications are being squeezed out by 'bot-generated nonsense?" Also, "How do we do it accurately and fairly?" (Those are not easy questions.)
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
Coder
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2649
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:40 am
Location: Southeast Michigan

Re: The dead internet - and Skirt Cafe

Post by Coder »

crfriend wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:22 pm The example that Coder produced using ChatGPT was a case in point. Even before he "outed" that one, I smelled a rat -- that no human thought went into that bit of writing. However, in the absence of rules for guidance could do nothing about it but be "suspicious" -- and it turned out my suspicion was correct. I also get the gist (something else 'bots cannot process) that others were thinking along the same lines -- "It may have been posted by Coder, but it doesn't "feel" like his writing (unless he's stoned)." (And I don't think he does that.)
Obviously, my post was intentionally, ironically responding to moonshadow's concern's about AI - his very valid concerns. My error was posting after I posted that it was a bot response - should have included it as part of the end of the message - but the intent was to take an actual "AI's" words and respond to moonshadow to highlight where we are now with conversational AI, and to be silly (something I am too often, unfortunately). I thought stating that upfront would ruin the "surprise" and make it less shocking. Also, you correctly surmised - I do not do any controlled substances - one of my fears with those is "losing control" over my thoughts and words. I've always worried about drinking alcohol, getting drunk, and then spilling my guts about wearing skirts to my family/friends... and frankly the idea of doing any kind of substance doesn't do anything for me anyways.
crfriend wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:22 pm That's precisely the problem I'm dealing with at the moment (along with a laundry-list of other "issues" in my own life), "How do we nip this in the bud before the humans all give up because their communications are being squeezed out by 'bot-generated nonsense?" Also, "How do we do it accurately and fairly?" (Those are not easy questions.)
Hrmmm, right now "AI" generates mostly detectable output. It's somewhat easy to spot, especially since a lot of us have distinctive styles... but say a new person registered and that was their style - how would you know? I also suspect some may end up using it to augment their own writing. I've tried (unsuccessfully) to have it rework sentences and paragraphs I've written for documentation, and it always falls flat - but I'm usually starting from a point where I can't get further with my writing without chatting with another human.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14433
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: The dead internet - and Skirt Cafe

Post by crfriend »

Coder wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:50 pmHrmmm, right now "AI" generates mostly detectable output. It's somewhat easy to spot, especially since a lot of us have distinctive styles... but say a new person registered and that was their style - how would you know?
I said it was a "hard question", and that's one of the reasons why.
I also suspect some may end up using it to augment their own writing.
The problem with doing that is that it will inevitably dull their own style down into the bland monotone that characterises AI-generated "stuff". The answer to that is, of course, to learn how to write, and keep at it so you stay sharp. Keeping humans human is likely going to become a fairly hot topic in the coming decades. Let's not start dumbing them down now!
I've tried (unsuccessfully) to have it rework sentences and paragraphs I've written for documentation, and it always falls flat - but I'm usually starting from a point where I can't get further with my writing without chatting with another human.
That's a lost cause, so don't even bother trying. If you block whilst writing something technical, go back and look at the specs for the design; that'll usually yield ideas. If you're well and truly blocked, get help from a writer. It's likely we all know at least one.

Keeping writing, and delivery, "human" is one of the best things we can do so we don't lose our ability to communicate with other human beings. Pursue the "art of conversation" when you're in public, because it's dying -- and it's one of the things that makes us human. Also, don't avoid the use of humour, either. I still recall a presentation I did in front of about 100 people several years ago on the problems with monitoring complex computer systems, and as a "throwaway" linked Wernher Heisenberg and George Carlin in adjacent sentences. It took the audience about 10 minutes to realise that, and in the murmuring caught a snippet of, "What did he just say?" from somebody, so I paused and fessed up to it, using Carlin's wonderful remark of, "I don't care if all Hell breaks loose. I'm more worried that piece of it will because that'll be harder to detect."
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
rode_kater
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 836
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:46 pm

Re: The dead internet - and Skirt Cafe

Post by rode_kater »

Coder wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:50 pm Hrmmm, right now "AI" generates mostly detectable output. It's somewhat easy to spot, especially since a lot of us have distinctive styles... but say a new person registered and that was their style - how would you know?
Eventually, tools like ChatGPT are going to be integrated with programs like Word and Google Docs. Perhaps even integrated into your browser.
It's an open question how this is going to affect tone of voice. I expect that it will be a configuration option, and that you'll be able to point it to stuff you've written and ask it follow that. Just like now you can ask it to respond like a pirate. The alternative is that every written text becomes the same, but I don't think that's desirable since if you don't support multiple languages and regional dialects, the whole thing is a non-starter.

I think a simple rule like: "output from ChatGPT must be marked as such" is doable. I don't think you can make rules that will handle far into the future because we just don't know what's going to happen.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14433
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: The dead internet - and Skirt Cafe

Post by crfriend »

rode_kater wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 10:13 pmI think a simple rule like: "output from ChatGPT must be marked as such" is doable. I don't think you can make rules that will handle far into the future because we just don't know what's going to happen.
The problem with that is that there is -- at the moment -- no accurate way to detect that particular "AI"'s "style", nor is there a foolproof way to detect the claim that the "AI" was involved. Hence the notion of, "hard question". Right now, there are no good answers -- and certainly no easy ones.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
rode_kater
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 836
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:46 pm

Re: The dead internet - and Skirt Cafe

Post by rode_kater »

crfriend wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:48 am The problem with that is that there is -- at the moment -- no accurate way to detect that particular "AI"'s "style", nor is there a foolproof way to detect the claim that the "AI" was involved. Hence the notion of, "hard question". Right now, there are no good answers -- and certainly no easy ones.
Is that important? Do the rules:
  • give a list of things for moderators (i.e. you) to enforce, or
  • describe the norms of behaviour we as a community are expected to adhere to?
There will never be a foolproof way to detect a bot, and it's only going to get harder. I'm in the camp of "rules define norms", enforceability is a secondary problem (one which we are in a sense all responsible, not just the moderators).

If the point is that you'll never be able to definitely prove an account is a bot or not, then that's true. But if the actions of an account are harming the community, then that is sufficient grounds to act, bot or not.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14433
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: The dead internet - and Skirt Cafe

Post by crfriend »

rode_kater wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:59 amThere will never be a foolproof way to detect a bot, and it's only going to get harder. I'm in the camp of "rules define norms", enforceability is a secondary problem (one which we are in a sense all responsible, not just the moderators).

If the point is that you'll never be able to definitely prove an account is a bot or not, then that's true. But if the actions of an account are harming the community, then that is sufficient grounds to act, bot or not.
Those are both entirely valid points, and come very close to the way that the moderation team tends to approach things. In fact, following several complaints, action was taken on one recently -- not for likely being a 'bot, but for "bad behaviour".
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
FranTastic444
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 569
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:47 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: The dead internet - and Skirt Cafe

Post by FranTastic444 »

I thought about putting this into its own thread, but it seems to be related to what is being discussed here. On Instagram there is an account named neuralpantyhose that is doing some interesting stuff with an application called Stable Diffusion (description from Wikipedia - a deep learning, text to image model).

Many are clearly in the fantasy / special interest category, but if you can put that to one side there are some images in there that look close enough to real world (akin to the sort of thing that Mark Bryan has posted in the past). Sometimes the images just look like a female body with a male head superimposed and at other times the frame can look slightly more masculine, but with a waistline that maybe isn't achievable in real life.

I'm not sure if the images are straight from application or if there is some level of post-processing in PhotoShop or similar. I caught the tail end of an interview recently where someone was talking about the Pope in a puffer jacket and Trump arrest images and it looked like there was some post processing going on there.

Just like with ChatGPT, there is a website where you can play around with the technology

I appreciate that many of you will not have / want social media accounts. The following links *might* give you an idea of the sort of things I'm talking about (not sure if the URL's expire).

Here
Here
Here
Coder
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2649
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:40 am
Location: Southeast Michigan

Re: The dead internet - and Skirt Cafe

Post by Coder »

Besides the inauthenticity of being generated by AI, the problem I have with these images is they don't present real people experimenting and developing their own styles - it's just a rehash of what's popular or the typical aesthetic.
FranTastic444 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 3:44 pm Sometimes the images just look like a female body with a male head superimposed and at other times the frame can look slightly more masculine, but with a waistline that maybe isn't achievable in real life.
Yeah, and that veers so closely to uncanny valley territory, it makes the styles more off-putting.

I think the recent ASOS male skirt styles prove a "masculine" skirt esthetic can be achieved without going down the path of total woman's clothes style adoption. Not that there is anything wrong with that - and to some degree I use ideas from the other side of the aisle when putting my outfits together - but I think we can forge our own aesthetic without needing to carbon-copy everything a woman does or how they look.
ScotL
Chatbot
Posts: 1459
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:43 am

Re: The dead internet - and Skirt Cafe

Post by ScotL »

Coder wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:03 pm but I think we can forge our own aesthetic without needing to carbon-copy everything a woman does or how they look.
I think we MUST forge our own aesthetic.

Wearing skirts and adopting the typical styles of females makes us men wearing women’s clothing.

Wearing skirts and merging them into typical styles of males makes us men wearing skirts.

I received the Adidas unisex skirt. Sure, it’s unisex. But the material is not feminine. It’s got substance to it that harkens to “sturdy clothing” for men. It’s half pleated on a side. Odd I know but it works. My family calls it a kilt. And it closes as a kilt. It feels right.

I have a cheap nylon with elastane skirt that’s a skirt meant for women even though it has pockets. Its thin and loosed and swishes. It’s doesn’t feel as right.

NOTE: This is just my opinion. Please don’t jump down my throat for expressing my opinion. If yours varies from mine, great! Neither are right nor wrong.
Post Reply