How to trigger everyone at once

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stephanie53
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Re: How to trigger everyone at once

Post by stephanie53 »

AMEN MOON!
Being in Cal, I'm watching it rain , and I mean rain. They're opening all the dams and letting all the water out, to make room for more. They want conservation, come the end of January when the rain stops, They will all be bitching again about the drought, because all the lakes are dry again. And where do you think all the run off is going? It's breaking levies all over the place and flooding everything.
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pelmut
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Re: How to trigger everyone at once

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This thread has stated me counting up the number of fuels I have cooked with at various times.  My mother had a gas cooker that ran on 'town gas' (a mixture of hydrogen and carbon monoxide),  it was later modified to run on 'North Sea Gas' (mainly methane).  I currently have an electric cooker.  When I first started camping I used my grandmother's paraffin stove that she had used during WWII but modified so that I could heat two pans at once.  That had a 'silent' burner for vapourising the paraffin, which had just about enough heat transfer capacity to work indoors but was liable to flare up badly if there was any breeze.  A couple of potentially dangerous incidents convinced me that I needed something more modern -- so I bought a petrol stove.

I was never very happy about carrying spare petrol for the stove, so when I got a diesel van I bought a British Army Number 12 diesel stove, which could share the van's spare fuel supply.  The one I bought had hidden damage, which soon showed up as an irrepairable leak, so I obtained a paraffin Optimus stove with a 'roarer' type of burner.  The vapouriser has plenty of excess heat transfer capacity, so I discovered it was possible to modify it and run it on diesel.

I am the official pyromaniac for a canal restoration work party, my job is to light the bonfires and make the tea.  Our tea kettle is what was once known as a "Diddicoy stove" and runs on wood.  We cheat by starting it with a propane blowlamp.   Apparently the original name was considered to be politically incorrect and it was changed to "Kelly kettle".  That was also found objectionable, so they changed it again to "Storm kettle".
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Re: How to trigger everyone at once

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There's nothing wrong with using wood to cook with; I've done it more than a few times. I've got an electric stove now but never use it as I;m alone all the time, but got quite proficient with a gas stove when I was still with my late ex- I grew up with electrics, but found the gas stove a distinct improvement.

"Town gas" sounds like a nasty thing indeed. It's best that it's gone.
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Fred in Skirts
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Re: How to trigger everyone at once

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pelmut wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 6:11 pm I am the official pyromaniac for a canal restoration work party, my job is to light the bonfires and make the tea.  Our tea kettle is what was once known as a "Diddicoy stove" and runs on wood.  We cheat by starting it with a propane blowlamp.   Apparently the original name was considered to be politically incorrect and it was changed to "Kelly kettle".  That was also found objectionable, so they changed it again to "Storm kettle".
I get tired of all of the "Political Correct" changing of names just so you don't offend one or two people who scream the loudest over nothing! I am what I call an escapee from a "Politically Correct Institution".

I do not worry if I do not speak with "Political Correct" words or phrases. I do not apologize either!!
That is how I feel and that is how I'll feel the day I leave this place!! :mrgreen:
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Jim
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Re: How to trigger everyone at once

Post by Jim »

moonshadow wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:28 pm I don't think gas ranges really contribute all that much to the climate change problem. 2/3's of the population don't even use them.
The main concern about gas stoves is their connection with childhood asthma. If you don't have a child living with you there is no need to defend the practice.
pelmut
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Re: How to trigger everyone at once

Post by pelmut »

crfriend wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 6:31 pm [...]
"Town gas" sounds like a nasty thing indeed. It's best that it's gone.
It was the standard product of every coal-fired town gasworks, produced by heating coal in airtight retorts.  When the resulting mix of gas and vapour was cooled and purified, lots of useful chemicals were recovered.
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Re: How to trigger everyone at once

Post by rode_kater »

moonshadow wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:28 pm Last month's bill was $153 for about 947kwh. That may not sound like a lot for a winter time bill, but consider that my house has ZERO sources of electric [hvac] heating. I'd say most of that kwh usages is from the clothes dryer and electric water heater. Folks that actually have electric heat pumps elsewhere in Appalachian Power's service area are seeing monthly electric bills over $600-$700 in some cases.
Is that right? I use 1500kWh per year. So I looked it up and the average US household uses 10000kWh per year(!). That's more that twice what even a very big household (5+ people) here in NL would be expected to use (assuming no electric heating). You're basically using 1.3kW of power continuously, basically half a space heater, and that's without electric heating. I would say you are effectively heating your house with electricity. That the US burns energy like it's free is well known.

I agree with you that cooking is not a significant power usage. Heating is the main culprit. Although what on earth you could be using all that electricity for I can't imagine.

Actually, it turns out that the average american fridge uses more than my entire house (500W)... That explains a lot.
moonshadow wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:28 pm Why do politicians.. including the ones that make these policies refuse to "walk the walk"?

Google major politicians house (including Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden). Tell me they don't have a carbon footprint. They probably have CLOSETS that are bigger than my entire house!
Maybe, but closets don't use energy. The biggest improvement would be to enforce some energy efficiency guidelines. That would reduce everyone's electricity usage, even politicians.

Judging by the above, it seems if everyone replaced their fridge with an energy efficient one, you'd be able to close half the power plants in the US.
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Re: How to trigger everyone at once

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When I was very young(mid 1950's) my parents had a gas(propane) stove.
The two gas bottles sat outside, opposite of the stove. I remember when
we changed to electric. Mom was flustered a bit but soon learned how to
'plan' the cooking of meals. From then on, I've only worked with electric
stoves. My wife refused to cook with a gas stove so, we only rented homes
or apartments with electric stoves. Now, I'm using a glass electric cook top.
Separate electric double wall oven. I really enjoy baking - anything ;)
Even with this type of cooking, in the summer I only use the microwave oven.
Or cook outside on a propane camp grill/stove. Have gas heat but if the electric
goes out, the igniter won't operate. I've been lucky that the electricity hasn't
gone out, in the winter, for many years. (Severe storms are another matter.)

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Re: How to trigger everyone at once

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rode_kater wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:50 pm I agree with you that cooking is not a significant power usage. Heating is the main culprit. Although what on earth you could be using all that electricity for I can't imagine.
Honestly?

I'd say the two biggest offenders are the hot water heater which operates at 4500 watts and sees daily use and the clothes dryer which also has a 4500 watt element. Honestly, if a certain legal age house guest would spread her wings and fly, I'm convinced we could save about 1/3 off our electric usage. I personally (my clothes only) run about 1.5 loads of wash per fortnight, I also use cold water.

Aside from that there are a couple of necessary loads seperate from the "lights" (which at this point are mostly LED's with a couple of old CFL's in the mix. No incandescent other than the 40 watt appliance bulbs in the oven and fridge). These are: The fridge and a dehumidifier in the basement. I'd say the dehumidifier contributes at least $20 to the bill. But without it moisture would take over the basement, and with that comes the mildew and mold.

We have a few high wattage appliances that see intermittent, albeit daily use. Microwave oven (1200 watts) toaster (1200 watts... okay, it was made in 1953). According to the dateplate on my gas oven, even it is rated for 5 amps. I'd have to pull an actual amp draw on it to see what the igniter consumes. I'm willing to bet it's at least a few hundred watts.

In this one example, this goes to show that not everything modern is more energy efficient. I personally dislike this type of [glowrod] igniter. Basically the igniter glows red hot and ignites the fuel. The igniter doubles as a safety, and I believe that once the igniter hits a certain current it allows the gas valve to open thus doubling as a safety (if the igniter goes out, current to the valve ceases and thus the valve closes).

I've never ran into this type of ignition system on commercial systems, and even in older residential ovens. I would have preferred a standard pilot with thermocouple safety system, whereas you bypass a pilot valve to light the pilot, allow the thermocouple to satisfy the pilot safety valve and allow the gas valve to operate. Often times these setups require no outside source of electricity, relying on millivolts to operate the valve.

But you know... so many people under 40 have no Earthly idea how to light a pilot (believe me, you'd be surprised the number of service techs I've trained that don't know how to light a simple pilot... :roll: ) or maybe those suburban types just don't want to be bothered with it, and want fully functional automatic igniters. To them I say... "go electric...you clearly have no business cooking with gas". No... seriously, I'm not trying to sound ugly or self righteous. If you can't light a pilot, you've got no business with gas appliances.

I suspect the "glodrod igniters" will be similar to light bulbs, in that they will burn out frequently requiring constant service. In commercial ovens (that see use several hours per day, every day), if a glowrod style igniter is used, it's used along with an ignition module that kills the power to the igniter once flame has been established. The module detects flame (for safety) via a simple flame sense rod, usually on the far side of the burner. That system likely uses a fraction of the wattage, not to mention being far more reliable.

Anyway...

The Dutch are known for advancements for humanity, it's been this way for a long time. I don't know much about the Dutch government, but I can tell you that in the U.S. the government takes care of the roads and the military. For pretty much everything else, we're on our own. We get tax incentives for upgrading our appliances to whatever Uncle Sam is trying to socially engineer us into buying, which frankly usually doesn't have anything to do with saving the planet, or saving money, or saving this, or saving that... it's usually just trying to twist our arm into forking over upgrades to whatever industry has greased the palms of congress and whatever administration is in charge at the moment.

I don't know much about high efficiency residential refrigerators, but I can tell you that in the commercial end of the equation, whenever a restaurant invest in "high efficiency" equipment, it's usually of European engineering and components. The parts are highly proprietary, making it more and more difficult to "get 'em up and running", and it takes longer to figure out. Oh, and there's the price tag. Made of cheaper metal, extremely expensive controllers and other components.

Oh my goodness *rubs temples*, the stuff these new warewasher engineers pump out to squeeze every last bit of efficiency out of these machines these days..... gone are the days of just pumping 140 degree incoming water temps into a booster tank and throwing 80 amps of raw power to it to make it rise to 180 in seconds... oh no... those days are gone.... And then there's the fryers... the old tube style gas fryers are phasing out, and in their place ... some NASA looking ignition system that I still don't fully understand, I just know that you can't use an old fashioned manometer on it to check gas pressure.. oh no... gotta use the $3,000 combustion analyzer instead.

Why just two weeks ago I had to call a manufacturer just to figure out how to get the damned thing to filter. Me... a twenty year veteran of the industry, humbled by something that most teens do on their first jobs... but if you don't know and the company makes an interface as finicky as an iPhone.... Jesus...

Thank God I live in an area 30 years behind the times... I've got 25 to go and I'm going to try to retire.

Wait... what were we talking about?? :lol:

P.S. I will NOT be parting with my 70 year old toaster... I don't care what the current administration says about it! That thing is a classic! And us millennials... we like that kind of vintage trendy stuff. :mrgreen:

Or... I tell ya what... maybe I'll part with my toaster when we actually have members of congress and a president that weren't alive when the toaster was manufactured! :twisted: If Biden tells me to retire my toaster, I'll look at him and say "you first..." :lol:

I like my toaster... don't _____ with my toaster...
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Re: How to trigger everyone at once

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moonshadow wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:33 amI like my toaster... don't _____ with my toaster...
Good rant, Sir! Good rant, indeed!

I agree on most of it, especially the bits on pilot lights and "not being qualified to use gas". However, other "elder" technology also has its graces and beauty; not my love of "antique" computers. Sure, their performance in terms of "instructions per watt-hour" is pretty small, but what they can do eclipses the "new tech" that drives idiot devices like cell' 'phones and "consumer" devices. I need to create, dammit, which means I need real I/O devices like proper keyboards, not the glass cr@p on modern stuff.

Based on the "floor" draw of my place (as I have 'lectronic access to all the meters) being about 800 watts, that adds up, and most of it is my computers. I was up-front about that with my landlady and flat-out said, "You're going to see a bump in electric draw when I move in, and I will make up the difference." High-draw moments can easily top 10 kW, but it's a big house with four adults living in it so that's not particularly surprising. Our typical load is about 45 kWH per day, and the PV array on the roof helps power the place and during the summer can handle almost everything during the day. (Needless to say, in the winter the output is quite a bit more paltry.)

On politicians, yeah, if I had my druthers I'd retire (perhaps in a "Blade Runner" manner) each and every one of 'em older than my oldest computer (1961). I'm sick to death of ancient rich guys who have no connection to the world they command.

Don't surrender that toaster unless they pry it from your cold dead hands.
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Re: How to trigger everyone at once

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Your old electric toaster is OK as you could run it from solar/wind power.
I have an old one in stock with a spare element but now use a modern single slice pop-up unit after a long history of crusty cremations.
I also have a gas one in case the power goes off and last but certainly not least I can make toast on a fire.
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Uncle Al
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Re: How to trigger everyone at once

Post by Uncle Al »

Where I use the most electricity is not in cooking or heating the house.
I have gas heat for both house and water. My major electricity use is in
the air conditioner during the spring, summer and fall of the year.
The electric dryer gets used about 5 hours per week. Living in Texas,
there have been(and will be) times when the A/C is running 24/7.

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Re: How to trigger everyone at once

Post by rode_kater »

moonshadow wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:33 am I've never ran into this type of ignition system on commercial systems, and even in older residential ovens. I would have preferred a standard pilot with thermocouple safety system, whereas you bypass a pilot valve to light the pilot, allow the thermocouple to satisfy the pilot safety valve and allow the gas valve to operate. Often times these setups require no outside source of electricity, relying on millivolts to operate the valve.
Ah yes. My grandfather's house had gas heating with individual heaters per room with simple pilot lights. Nowadays central heating is standard, and actually floor heating is the preferred mechanism these days. Visitors would exclaim about how old-fashioned the gas heaters were, but they were awesome. Just the pilot light would keep the place comfortable, And if it was cold, you just turned up the thermostat and the room would be toasty warm in no time. And sitting near it was like sitting next to a open fireplace. Nice radiant heat.

Of course after he died the new owners installed central heating with all these ugly radiators and frankly I don't want to know. Central heating does warm your house, but they're nowhere near as nice as a classic gas heater.

I know near the end when he wanted them serviced, they techs would simply refuse to work with them. However, one company, when they heard the name did come because he'd been a customer for 40 years. It's possible the new owners just couldn't find anyone who would work with them. For the curious, they were Pelgrim Bambino model.
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Re: How to trigger everyone at once

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In the summer my electric bill runs about $235.00 and in the winter it runs about
$87.00. I have gas heat (propane) it is part and parcel of the central heating system. My place is about 35 years old and some of the insulation has compacted and is not as good as used to be at keeping the house warm in winter and cool in the summer. Living in South US summers are usually pretty hot and winters are cold but usually not very cold. Except this year when we have had temperatures in the lower teens so far. Last night it dropped to 21F and it has not warmed up much as it is about 40F now.

I cook with gas but my water heater is electric. When I replaced it back 16 years ago the new one was not as efficient as the one that went bad, when I asked the plumber about that he said finding water heaters that were as efficient as my old one wasn't easy. They were not making them efficient anymore. At least not without an extra extra high price tag.
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Re: How to trigger everyone at once

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Fred in Skirts wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:54 pm ... my water heater is electric. When I replaced it back 16 years ago the new one was not as efficient as the one that went bad, when I asked the plumber about that he said finding water heaters that were as efficient as my old one wasn't easy. They were not making them efficient anymore. At least not without an extra extra high price tag.
I can't see how an electric water heater could possibly be made inefficient.  All the energy delivered to the heating element finishes up as heat in the water; it is as near 100% efficient as any appliance could be.
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