I just don't understand...

Non-fashion, non-skirt, non-gender discussions. If your post is related to fashion, skirts or gender, please choose one of the forums above for it.
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 6994
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Warm Beach, Washington
Contact:

Re: I just don't understand...

Post by moonshadow »

Look... the guns aren't going anywhere. The Democratic party lacks a backbone to get anything done and the GOP damned sure ain't going to do it.

Guns are part of American culture, and always have been... but something has changed over the last couple decades.

One observation is that the citizens of the U.S. are constantly furious all of the time. Parents are furious and that leads to kids that are furious.

People no longer have a filter on what they say, especially online (where most youngsters hang out) and as a result these youngsters have no moral compass.

It's going to get much worse (and I don't think it's ever going to get better).

Due to my physical location and the nature of my job, I have my finger on the pulse of the far right, and I'm telling you most people I come across in my day to day travels are ready to go into a full blown civil war.

A gun grab might have worked 20-30 years ago... but not anymore. Try it now and the rivers will run red with blood. Y'all just don't know how bad it's gotten.

Thunk about it... for the last decade or so I've been able to freely discuss matters of atheism or agnosticism, Wiccan, paganism freely with pretty much anyone... but if you say something against Trump or the people of his party... "dems fightin words..."

These people don't worship the Christian God anymore... they worship America, and they look at a gun grab as a rally cry towards war, and the conservative church stoked the fire all along. Now the fire rages and it's out of control.

I fear it's too late, the American Taliban is firmly installed and seated within the fabric of American culture and politics. We won't root it out anymore than we'll bring peace to the middle east.

This is what we are now... killers, all of us. Every time we post some bullsh!t stupid ass meme on social media... we pull the trigger, every time our churches put a political party before God... we pull the trigger, every time we teach our children to hate others that may be different... we pull the trigger, everyone we loot and burn a city block... we pull the trigger, every time we place profit over life... we pull the trigger, every time we ridicule and ostracize our neighbor... we pull the trigger, every time we claim to be the victim of our own messes and expect others to pay for it... we pull the trigger.

We the people are the problem, and if there ever was a God that looked over the nation, they have long since left, and it doesn't look like they're coming back.

My hope is at an all time low. I'm disgusted and ashamed.

The school shootings will die down for a few months since it's almost summer vacation, but I'm sure we'll have plenty of shootings in other places, but come late August, we'll run about one shooting per week at some school or another... like we always do.

God almighty... what the f--k is wrong with this place???
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
Bodycon
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:25 pm

Re: I just don't understand...

Post by Bodycon »

Yes it is about the person, but if you cannot control the person you need to control the tool.
This is fallacious thinking and simply does not work because "where there's a will, there's a way". Hence the old adage of "Outlaw 'foo' and only outlaws will have 'foo'."
I hate to be the one to point out the obvious, but it works in nearly (I would say all, but someone will show an exception) every other country on the planet. If you don't have it, you can't use it, simple. Where there is a will....will, of course, result in another shooting, but with less frequency and less fatalities. FFS you are averaging over 400 a year, that's just shootings, not deaths.

I was listening to the radio in the car and on the news it was reported that Trump had said that it was time to arm the teachers. You will end up with more security and more guns around schools than prisons and even still, the prisons will be safer places to be. THAT idiot is exactly what is wrong with the USA's relationship with guns!
Faldaguy
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1122
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:09 am
Location: Costa Rica

Re: I just don't understand...

Post by Faldaguy »

by Bodycon » Sat May 28, 2022 8:57 am

Yes it is about the person, but if you cannot control the person you need to control the tool.
This is fallacious thinking and simply does not work because "where there's a will, there's a way". Hence the old adage of "Outlaw 'foo' and only outlaws will have 'foo'."
I hate to be the one to point out the obvious, but it works in nearly (I would say all, but someone will show an exception) every other country on the planet. If you don't have it, you can't use it, simple. Where there is a will....will, of course, result in another shooting, but with less frequency and less fatalities.
I was a bit startled by what appeared to be an out of character logic error citing the old adage, "Outlaw 'foo'.... But I wonder if the additional info -- that the US has such a multitude of jurisdictions with a huge range of rules from essentially none in TX to many in MA -- that the solution is compounded, not singular.

While the US could theoretically reduce the problem with rigorous gun controls similar to other countries-- IF THE CONTROLS WERE UNIFORM ACROSS THE NATION, it cannot be done with multiple jurisdictions and the hodge-podge of rules that are not even State wide in many places. Thus, to 'control the tool' in the US it needs to be addressed at the Federal/National level, as it has been in countries where we have seen effective results by controlling the tool.

A second problem with the logic of controlling the tool in the US -- is as Moon has pointed out, there are more guns than people and the preponderance of those are already concentrated in the hands of unstable folks in 'unregulated' regions. However, doing nothing, and blaming everything and everyone other than the tool is even more flawed. It may be more accurate to say most of those tools are already in the hands of the "outlaw", it is just that those outlaws have not shown their colors or been caught yet. Very few of the 'mass shooters' were considered criminals before their rampage.
rode_kater
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 836
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:46 pm

Re: I just don't understand...

Post by rode_kater »

crfriend wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 2:16 pm
Yes it is about the person, but if you cannot control the person you need to control the tool.
This is fallacious thinking and simply does not work because "where there's a will, there's a way". Hence the old adage of "Outlaw 'foo' and only outlaws will have 'foo'."
This is a terrible argument. By the argument we should:

* not bother with door locks because they don't stop a determined burglar

* not bother with speed limits because they don't stop a determined speeder

* not bother with laws against murder because they don't stop a determined murderer.

Laws are not just about deciding what is legal and what is illegal. They're also about making statements about collective values. People are social animals so they can have impact even without enforcement, because they set expectations.

Right now the opinion in many parts of the US appears to be: you can do what you like with firearms, including shooting up schools. Its all your personal responsibility and no-one else can tell you otherwise. And so the laws reflect that, and people's actions reflect that as well. The gun shop owner that sold the kid the weapon clearly felt no personal responsibility.

There are other countries in the world that have as many weapons amongst the population as the US, but don't have this problem. That's because the social expectations with regard to firearms is completely different.
crfriend wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 2:16 pm Faldaguy added an interesting -- and accurate -- observation in that inequality is likely fostering some of the toxicity in modern society, and it does so by removing hope from the equation leaving the future a stark and horrible place to ponder. No wonder the youth of today seem completely rudderless. Unfortunately, that problem will not get solved any time soon.
I think the electoral system whose goal appears to be to disenfranchise as many people as possible doesn't help.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14431
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: I just don't understand...

Post by crfriend »

rode_kater wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:56 amThis is a terrible argument. By the argument we should:

* not bother with door locks because they don't stop a determined burglar
* not bother with speed limits because they don't stop a determined speeder
* not bother with laws against murder because they don't stop a determined murderer.

Laws are not just about deciding what is legal and what is illegal. They're also about making statements about collective values. People are social animals so they can have impact even without enforcement, because they set expectations.
Indeed, those are all entirely valid points, and under most circumstances work nicely. Unfortunately, in this case, the "old thinking" has utterly and abjectly failed -- perhaps down to the patchwork nature of its implementation -- so it's time to attempt another tack to approach a resolution to the problem.

There is something fundamentally flawed in the American psyche that thinks acts of wanton mayhem are acceptable -- or even thinkable; that's the angle I believe should be pursued. Is it going to be slow going? Yes, very slow going; look how long it's taken for such acts to become common. It's going to take longer to purge the cancer from the public mindset.
There are other countries in the world that have as many weapons amongst the population as the US, but don't have this problem. That's because the social expectations with regard to firearms is completely different.
This is the point I allude to; it's primarily the collective psyche of the population that keeps things on an even keel. The US has lost its way in this regard.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 6994
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Warm Beach, Washington
Contact:

Re: I just don't understand...

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 11:48 am There is something fundamentally flawed in the American psyche that thinks acts of wanton mayhem are acceptable -- or even thinkable; that's the angle I believe should be pursued. Is it going to be slow going? Yes, very slow going; look how long it's taken for such acts to become common. It's going to take longer to purge the cancer from the public mindset.
YES!- YES YES YES!

And that is why the current hill I've steaked out is the religious conservative's obsession with "mammon" and the artillery required to protect it.

They either need to admit that they've stopped following their God and instead placed their faith in worldly items and worldly people (politicians), then I'll at least respect the honesty... or...

They PUT THEIR MONEY WHERE THEIR MOUTH IS and start LIVING THE VALUES THEY PREACH and teach their children accordingly!

That means:

1) STOP DOGGING AND HATING YOUR LIBERAL NEIGHBORS

2) STOP DOGGING AND HATING FOREIGNERS

3) STOP GLORIFYING DONALD TRUMP AND HIS DICIPLES AT SUNDAY MORNING SERVICE

4) HOLDING THE NRA ACCOUNTABLE.

5) STOP WITH THE CONSUMER ENTITLEMENT

6) STOP THE SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS

.. I could go on and on..

It won't eliminate gun violence, but I believe over the course of a few generations it will whittle it down to around where it was before the 1960s.... and maybe put in on par with the rest of the civilized world.

Because here's the thing Carl, once they [the conservatives] recalibrate their values, there won't need to be a "gun grab", they'll hand over their semiautomatic riffles and other military grade artillery freely, and they'll call out and hold politicians accountable that abide riff-raff and violent troublemaking. Not to mention, think of all the other problems we may eliminate once we get that side of society on board with their own values... we might actually have workable healthcare, we might start community building again, hell.. we might even start nation building again!

Imagine, a nation where we WILLFULLY put the needs of others ahead of our own....

Religious Right... I'm calling you out! When it comes to your "Christian values", it's time to PUT UP OR SHUT UP!
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
User avatar
Jim
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1551
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:39 am
Location: Northern Illinois, USA

Re: I just don't understand...

Post by Jim »

moonshadow wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 12:14 pm Religious Right... I'm calling you out! When it comes to your "Christian values", it's time to PUT UP OR SHUT UP!
I'm glad you put "Christian values" in quotes. It is sometimes hard to see the Jesus-style values in some of these people.
User avatar
Pdxfashionpioneer
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1650
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:39 am
Location: Portland, OR, USA

Re: I just don't understand...

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Ultimately, Carl and Moonshadow are right; at the end of the day, collectively, we Americans have got to get our heads screwed back on right. And that it starts by owning up to what we have gotten wrong.

However, in the meantime, we need to turn down the volume of the violence. These mass shootings would be impossible to pull off if rapid-fire, semi-automatic firearms and high-capacity magazines were not so readily available. Notice that the incidents that make the news because of the number of casualties are almost always committed with AR-15s of whatever make or model. I submit it's because they are an American design and therefore readily available to the manufacturers and hence the retailers. In addition, they're the type of firearm used by our military and thereby have a macho appeal.

Putting them under the 1930s Firearms Control Act that requires civilians to get a fairly restrictive license to own a machine gun will make it harder for civilians to obtain them and therefore for the deranged to act out their murderous fantasies. Banning the civilian ownership of high-capacity magazines will make committing these atrocities a whole lot harder to pull off. We should require everyone who owns a firearm to pass a background check, a test on proficiency of use and knowledge of the law, similar to a driving test; get a license; register their firearms and obtain liability insurance to cover the owner's absolute liability (A legal concept meaning what is done with one's possession, such as your car, is your responsibility). I expect that if these requirements were enacted nationwide a large number of people would sell their AR-15's, have their fathers' war trophies disabled and sell the home protection devices they bought in a panic because owning them would be a bigger hassle and expense than they were worth.

And let's not forget a safe storage requirement and a mandatory waiting period. The former will cut down on kids getting a hold of firearms and the waiting period will cut down on the suicides. While suicide is a personal decision, it has a public impact making it a fit subject for legal intervention. That decision is generally one made on impulse. A study was done of people who had attempted suicide but had survived. The average time between decision and action was on average 5 minutes. The nearly unanimous response to their attempt was that the prospect of dying was so terrifying that they would NOT ever think of trying again. In short, few suicidal people actually want to die so if they're forced to think longer about it, they almost certainly won't. If they're forced to use something other than a firearm, they probably won't succeed. For a number of reasons, but that's what the statistics tell us.

These requirements are NOT Draconian nor are they a gun grab; they're what we require of anyone who wants to own or drive an automobile. The differences are: Automobiles are nearly a necessity and are only incidentally deadly; firearms are generally a luxury and are intentionally deadly. Especially the military style firearms.

The first semiautomatic handgun that gained widespread usage in the US, the Model 1911A .45 caliber pistol, was adopted by the US military because their .25 caliber revolvers failed to stop attacking Philipine insurgents during our hostile takeover of their islands. The Model 1911A is legendary for its stopping power. If you get hit anywhere with one of its slugs, you're going down. Not necessarily dead, but down on the ground writhing in pain.

Similarly, the assault rifle started as a clean sheet of paper exercise by the German General Staff in the 1930s when they saw that they were going to be mobilizing millions of troops who would need millions of rifles. With typical German efficiency, they decided to make sure that the millions of rifles they would be buying would be the one best suited to the job. Up to that point all military rifles had been modeled on available hunting rifles; but were the requirements the same?

While the WWI standard issue Mauser was a fine rifle with a mile-long effective range, it was bulky, heavy, was a bolt action weapon and only had a few heavy rounds per magazine. Would a smaller, lighter, semiautomatic rifle with a larger magazine be sufficient? Under combat conditions the average soldier couldn't identify an enemy any further away than a quarter mile so they could make do with a shorter barreled rifle (Range is a function of barrel length,). It turned out that the new .22 caliber short rifle round had sufficient stopping power. Better yet, with a slight tweak of the round they could make it tumble once it penetrated human flesh exacerbating the wound. Because it was a smaller rifle with smaller rounds, they could provide it with larger magazines and still have a manageable field weapon. The smaller rounds also meant that even at a fully automatic firing rate the rifle could be controlled. To keep its ammunition expenditure reasonable, they gave the rifle a selective firing switch so that it would usually fire at semi-auto.

Based on his WWI service, Hitler nixed the idea saying that the Mauser was what infantrymen needed. Behind his back the General Staff further developed the rifle and issued it as a special purpose weapon to selected units. When decorated Eastern Front soldiers clamored for more of these special rifles, Hitler asked for a demonstration. When he saw what it could do, he exclaimed, "This isn't just a rifle; it's an assault rifle!" And the name stuck. Fortunately, that was late enough in the war that the only battle where it saw widespread usage was in the Battle of the Bulge.

But can laws change minds? Abraham Lincoln said, as Carl suggested in one of his posts, that if the majority of the people don't support a law, it won't have practical effect. True. But let's look at the Civil Rights Acts passed in the early '60s during the Johnson Administration. They did not change people's minds overnight; they didn't even change as many local practices as they were meant to. Effectively many American public schools are still segregated. It's still easy to identify racial and ethnic neighborhoods in most of our cities. But we're not surprised to be supervised by Black managers, served by Black doctors or lawyers and so on. And the effects of long-established, deep-rooted racism still affects all Americans to this day. But, when African-Americans started breaking out of their former bonds during the mid-'60s, they had a legal leg to stand on, they generally prevailed and overall, their situation is much better today than it was then.

One way or another, the cultural fixation on firearms that Moonshadow talked about will take a long time to overcome, but in the meantime we can save lives with stronger, more effective, nationwide laws. Similar to those in the rest of the world.
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.
User avatar
Sinned
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 5804
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:28 pm
Location: York, England

Re: I just don't understand...

Post by Sinned »

Fred, how did you go from Moon's post to post about guns? Moon was on about trans issues - nothing to do with guns. Over here people are howled down for just saying that men have penises and women don't. My personal view is that, whatever the individual may claim, that they are a man until they have the gender reassignment surgery. They may dress like a woman and live as a woman but they have to accept the majority consensus that they will live in a difficult, awkward state until the surgery is done. Why should the majority make more than a few adjustments to sate the minority? OK, don't make their lives difficult but, to me, there's far too much emphasis on their ( minority ) rights than the populace's ( majority ) rights. It's all got out of balance.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
User avatar
denimini
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 3224
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:50 am
Location: Outback Australia

Re: I just don't understand...

Post by denimini »

Sinned wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:44 pm Fred, how did you go from Moon's post to post about guns? Moon was on about trans issues - nothing to do with guns.
I read the original post as it is the same people who get upset about "trans" that don't seem to worry so much about gun violence.
moonshadow wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:59 am .......... And then turn a blind eye to the almost DAILY carnage...
I would add that many people who support "right to life" (anti-abortion) also support right to bear arms, that leads to children being killed.
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
pelmut
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1923
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:36 am
Location: Somerset, England

Re: I just don't understand...

Post by pelmut »

Sinned wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:44 pm ...Over here people are howled down for just saying that men have penises and women don't.
I'd like to know who is doing this howling, none of the trangender people I know (and I know quite a lot) would ever do a thing like that.  I suspect these 'howlers' are part of a small but noisy group who have the ear of the press and the BBC -- and are not connected in any way with genuine transgender people.
My personal view is that, whatever the individual may claim, that they are a man until they have the gender reassignment surgery.
How could you tell?

I've been to a folk festival all weekend.  I have danced as a woman with men (some of whom knew me long before I began to suspect I was transgender), I have danced as a man with women and some of them thought I was just a woman dancing 'as man'.  I have used the ladies toilets without the slightest trouble and have checked the condition of the gents toilets as part of my stewarding duties.   ...and do you know, not one person ever asked to inspect my genitals.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
rode_kater
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 836
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:46 pm

Re: I just don't understand...

Post by rode_kater »

Sinned wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:44 pm My personal view is that, whatever the individual may claim, that they are a man until they have the gender reassignment surgery. They may dress like a woman and live as a woman but they have to accept the majority consensus that they will live in a difficult, awkward state until the surgery is done.
You go around checking people's genitals before talking to them? That's probably not what you meant since that's kind of rude.

I also find the whole discussion kind of silly. How often do you use pronouns to refer to people you don't know? Normally you just refer to them by name. It's a total non-issue AFAICT.
Faldaguy
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1122
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:09 am
Location: Costa Rica

Re: I just don't understand...

Post by Faldaguy »

by Sinned » Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:44 am

My personal view is that, whatever the individual may claim, that they are a man until they have the gender reassignment surgery. They may dress like a woman and live as a woman but they have to accept the majority consensus that they will live in a difficult, awkward state until the surgery is done. Why should the majority make more than a few adjustments to sate the minority? OK, don't make their lives difficult but, to me, there's far too much emphasis on their ( minority ) rights than the populace's ( majority ) rights. It's all got out of balance.
Underscore emphasis is mine.

Sinned, I've got a whole slew of dander up on this one. First, terms -- majority and consensus do not go together; two very different concepts. That aside: Rather than pitting "minority" and "majority" against one another -- how about seeking a true consensus, respect for everyone. It does not take any huge adaptation to accommodate pretty much any 'minority'. I'll suggest one, one word answer to your question: Decency. There are quite a few more.

As to the question of SRS -- I think you will find that a large number of trans folks will tell you that though they were birthed with the wrong genitals, they have known they were trans from a very early age; some have voiced it clearly as young as three and may or may not act upon it with SRS in their lifetime, but the gender ID is clear even if the body does not always conform.
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 6994
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Warm Beach, Washington
Contact:

Re: I just don't understand...

Post by moonshadow »

Well... just had another one in a Tulsa OK hospital.

I think America has just accepted that this is just a part of culture now....

Oh well. May the odds be in our favor as we live our lives...

Kinda ironic that we're about to ban abortions... :lol:

Yeah... I laugh... why not? "F--k it" right?

Hey.... too bad it wasn't a gender reassignment hospital... am I right? Americans would be like... "well... what's the big deal???" :roll:
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
User avatar
denimini
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 3224
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:50 am
Location: Outback Australia

Re: I just don't understand...

Post by denimini »

moonshadow wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:00 am Kinda ironic that we're about to ban abortions... :lol:
I wonder if "they" would be concerned about the possibility of pregnant women being shot.
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
Post Reply