I just don't understand...

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moonshadow
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I just don't understand...

Post by moonshadow »

These people [you know who I'm talking about...] will pack a school board meeting yelling and shouting to protest any amount of protection for a hypothetical transgender GIRL (not trans-BOYS... they get a pass) that may not even exist in their district...

...

And then turn a blind eye to the almost DAILY carnage...

I know we're not supposed to talk about this kind of stuff here... but as you can imagine, mum's the word here in RED APPALACHIA...nobody wants to have the conversation here... but you let a trans-girl try to get an education in one of these schools and watch them protest.... oh watch them protest...

A God damned shame...

Just lock the damned thread now. Ain't like sh!t's going to change anyway... no reason in even having the discussion.


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STEVIE
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Re: I just don't understand...

Post by STEVIE »

Hi Moon
Coming from my bit of this rock, I'd say I understand it even less.
In March 1996, there was an incident here in Scotland with very some remarkable parallels.
In particular, the ages and number of victims.
However, that most appalling but fortunately isolated event caused our firearms rules to be radically altered forever.
As for change in general, we can only do what we can on matters within our sphere of influence.
Take care, stay safe,
Steve.
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Fred in Skirts
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Re: I just don't understand...

Post by Fred in Skirts »

OK! Here we go again putting the blame on an in animate object. "THE GUN"
Lets instead put the blame where it really belongs...
1. The parents
2. The church
3. The school
3a. The teachers
4. And society

The shooter was just trying to get some attention, everyone from the parents on down has ignored his cries for help. Kids these days are so confused about what is right and what is wrong, because they were never taught. The schools say they should be the ones to train the kids not the parents, the parents say it is their job. In the end no one helps the child and he or she is left confused to the point they do what it takes to get the needed attention and in the end just ruin their own lives. Still they never get the proper attention that they need.

Here are just some of the problems that are being ignored...

https://redstate.com/alexparker/2022/05 ... es-n569226

https://redstate.com/jeffc/2022/05/24/a ... ar-n569259
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Bodycon
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Re: I just don't understand...

Post by Bodycon »

Fred in Skirts wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 7:07 pm OK! Here we go again putting the blame on an in animate object. "THE GUN"
No-one is blaming the gun, it will never, on its own, do any harm. In the hands of a child, an adult or in some cases when activated by a dog, someone gets killed. In the hands of the unhinged many people get killed. Repeat, repeat, repeat......

You have to realise that society is changed and that some of the laws and rights of several hundred years ago really do not have a place anymore. Amendments are required to bring them up to date. We discuss rights with regards to skirt wearing many times and this is no different. Take away the religion, take away the constitution, silence the big business gun lobby and look at a blank sheet of paper. Today. Does a teenager, or for that matter any civilian need an assault weapon? Should a teenager be able to purchase any kind of weapon without proving good reason and being evaluated first?

You have to be able to look past your supposedly god given rights and see that restricting access to weapons will reduce the ability of the perpetrators to do so much killing. You will never stop anyone who is wholly intent in harming others from doing so, but you can reduce the frequency and the amount of deaths at each event. It is not about all or nothing, you can have rights to own suitable weapons for whatever activities you wish to undertake, such as target shooting or hunting. You should never have had the right to own military style weapons, that is just plain stupid. It was stupid here too, but by consensus the UK removed handguns and automatic weapons from general ownership. Yes, the criminals have them and tend to just shoot each other, but for the most part (with a few exceptions) we do not have, nor does any other country I can think of, have anything like the issues in the USA.

I shoot, a lot of my friends shoot, I will be shooting tomorrow. I am pro shooting and shooters rights, but what is going on in the USA has to be stopped. If that means restricting the rights of shooters to save the lives of children then so be it, it is a small price to pay.
Last edited by Bodycon on Fri May 27, 2022 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I just don't understand...

Post by Bodycon »

STEVIE wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 6:32 pm In March 1996, there was an incident here in Scotland with very some remarkable parallels.
There were no parallels Stevie,

Hamilton was reported to the police many times by people who saw his behaviour as a threat (going back to the early 1970's) and they did nothing about it. This case was a failure of the police who did not follow the rules in implementing a system of checks and acting on information when provided.

Had his guns been taken away, he could not have committed the crime he did.
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Re: I just don't understand...

Post by Ray »

Bodycon is right. I’m fine with gun ranges, shooting for sport, and culling on estates where population control is required.

Having civilians walking about with guns though is flat out wrong. It’s barbaric. The US is a third world country for this reason. Deaths by the gun in that country are appalling. Appalling. And you blame the parents.

I feel so much sorrow for the parents of the recent shooting. My brothers were at the 1996 shooting. They survived although one saw the carnage in the gym. Changes in the U.K. since then have saved lives.

Here’s the irony. The NRA and other perverted organisations breed fear. Arm yourself or die. Well, here’s the reality. It makes f*ck all difference. Educate yourself. Lose the imagined fear. It’s a pile of crap. Get on with life. The rest of the world does. Without being armed to the teeth.

Thanks Moon for this.

Sick sick country. You have so much death and you do nothing about it. Shame on you. Not as individuals; it’s your sick society (bringing gods and self-righteousness into the debate?) and politics - especially the latter. Go and read the Onion, a normally satirical US website. It has published some commentary on this affliction. Food for thought.
Last edited by Ray on Sat May 28, 2022 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I just don't understand...

Post by crfriend »

Fred in Skirts wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 7:07 pmLets instead put the blame where it really belongs...
1. The parents
2. The church
3. The school
3a. The teachers
4. And society
I've got a more nuanced view on the matter and here's where I'd beg to differ:

1) Society. Where has compassion gone in our modern world? Compassion for our fellow humans, neighbours, and "all animals great and small". Where has it gone? Without that, all manner of otherwise incomprehensible acts become possible.
2) Parents. Parents have primacy in the development of their offspring. If they are negligent in that, then the reasons must be assessed, understood, and remediated. It's likely financial, because one adult income equals what it takes to support one adult if everybody is lucky. Children are not assessed in this equation, and they need to be.

The rest are very far down the list indeed, because they're largely irrelevant or unsuspecting when faced with a "situation". Churches are entirely irrelevant in the modern USA as those tend to be political organisations focused on retaining power rather than espousing a moral (or, better still, ethical) compass. Modern "schools" in the USA more resemble prisons and "detention centres" than anything else, and usually are not equipped to handle an armed intrusion. They tend to get caught off guard.

However, for all of that, the ultimate responsibility lies with the human(oid) who's pulling the trigger. Full stop. It's not the tools, it's the "talent".

We need -- as a society -- to figure out how to make the thought of committing such an act "unthinkable", or, if that's not possible, making sure that there are adequate "safeties" built into the collective consciousness to make the committing of such an act unthinkable or impossible.

Step one: Make compassion for one's fellow creatures a priority. Full stop. Without compassion for one another we will fail. This also implies stamping out the notion of machismo, which is an enabler.

It's time to fix the problem from an entirely different angle than ever more draconian "enforcement" and encroachment on personal liberties.
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Re: I just don't understand...

Post by Tazzmac »

I will never ever understand America's lack of gun control .. It's either barely existent or archaic . The amount of good Americans who die every day from gun violence is reprehensible ..The power brokers gun lobby NRA in the U.S. are the scum of the Earth because they will not allow the politicians to make some good rules , It's as simple as that . News report just the other day ..Already 200 mass shootings in America this year and we're not even half way ..Utterly unfathomable .. The Second Amendment that gun lovers hang their hat on needs serious amendment itself . Never happen though because if Sandy Hook massacre didn't change policy nothing will ...

In April 1996 here in my State of Tasmania in Australia witnessed 35 people die at the hands of a madman (Martin Bryant) . It was only weeks I think after Dunblane in Scotland . The bastard still lives by the way in Risdon Prison at the expense of taxpayers until the day he dies .,We had similar gun laws to many places in America .. Leading up to that unbelievable tragedy at Port Arthur known as the Port Arthur Massacre we had a whole heap of mass shootings here too .. Way too many . Some might have heard of Hoddle Street Massacre , Queen Street. and Milperra Massacre as the most well known ..
That was the final straw so all the States and Territories and the Federal Government quickly drafted uniform regulations across all juristictions for background checking , gun and ammo purchases , storage of them and other associated things to create now one of the safest countries in the world for guns.

Let me also add this .. The average Australian still have firearms if they wish . We HAVE NOT been disarmed . Reports say that actually there are more around than before 1996 but to have the privilege of owning firearms , a bit like getting a car licence you have to demonstrate you have adequate safety and operational knowledge of the weapon , you don't have a history of criminal violence and you are sufficiently well physically and mentally to be a gun owner.. You also have to have a plausible reason . That can be hunting , recreational target , for your job , pest control , agricultural reasons and such . Self defence is not a reason . It's not in our Constitution to have a gun for self defence like it is in America ..Thank Goodness..

GROW UP NRA ... and grow some balls U.S. politicians and stop the carnage .. You are the laughing stock of the world until you do ...
Last edited by Tazzmac on Sat May 28, 2022 12:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: I just don't understand...

Post by Kirbstone »

Well put, all of you.

I understand this bloke marched into a gun shop on his 18th birthday and purchased two? assault rifles plus ammunition! One question I would ask is, What sort of weapons retailer would actually sell such items to a kid obviously wet behind the ears and in all probability with seriously evil intent?

The mind boggles.

And two other things: Ease of access to the school with his lethal package and the tardy security response to the killing once he'd started.

Tom
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Re: I just don't understand...

Post by moonshadow »

Fred in Skirts wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 7:07 pm 1. The parents
2. The church
3. The school
3a. The teachers
4. And society
1. The parents) I have a cousin living in Bedford County Virginia. He is a far right wing religious extremist who despises anything outside of what he considers "normal" and "traditional". I've seen his videos on social media, he's very militant, has attended a fair number of community and school board meetings threatening his wrath towards any elected official that goes against his world view.

I suspect if he were black, or a Muslim, I am certain he would have already been locked away, but since he's a white Trumplican, and armed to the teeth, the Bedford County government abides his behavior as fine and upstanding.

He has children... quite a few of them actually. A few girls and a few boys. I question what these children are learning from their father, who is the Christian equivalent of Osama Bin Laden?

Someday, and I pray to God this day will never happen, but you're going to turn on the news and find a mass shooting taking place at Liberty High School in the small community of Bedford Virginia.... the name is one I'll know well, and I'll be ashamed to admit I knew the kid's father and that they are my kin... remember, you heard it here first. This kid will leave a manifesto fleshing out his hatred and desire to cleanse society of the evils that plague us, the "liberals", the "leftist" the "baby killers", the "faggots", the "n----ers", and he will do so in the name of his holy name, Jesus Christ, God almighty... which brings us to...

2. The church Where is the Church in all of this? They're down in Tennessee, with names you might recognize like Greg Locke, who vomit out "sermons" of pure hatred towards anyone who doesn't bend thou knee before their holy savior Donald Trump and his righteous and anointed GOP. Are there good churches out there?? Maybe... I don't know, you never hear from them. They seem mostly silent.

While the religious right spouts out fear porn over transgender girls while at the same time worshiping money, guns, big trucks, big oil, and living an all American life of planet destroying consumerism, we have over 700 leaders of Southern Baptist Churches molesting children over the last twenty years. Looks like sex with minors isn't just a Catholic kink anymore....

3. The school and teachers What shall they do? The fine line they walk having to thread the needle between militant Christian Taliban parents against those who want safety for their transgender daughters in the same public school, not to mention all those in the middle just trying to survive. I'm not even sure if teachers are allowed to mention the slavery and atrocities committed by the United States government over the last two and a half centuries. They are required to teach a history that is white washed and star spangled awesome.

While I was in school, I was taught that holding your government accountable is patriotic, and that America, though is a fine nation to live in (and it is) did, and continues to have its problems, and we can only progress towards solutions when we can discuss them freely.

Is every school perfect? No. Is any school perfect? No. But these teachers and administrators have a TOUGH job... I don't envy their task.

4. Society: Yep... take one look at virtually any social media page... look at the comments. They speak for themselves. Listen to people chat around you.

The right is right about one thing... a leftist gun grab won't solve anything, in fact it will only make things worse by pouring more fuel on an already out of control right wing fire.

As I see it:

The "moral right" of America is no longer Christ centered... it's centered on guns, self righteousness, and Trump's GOP.

I see bumper stickers all the time:

PRO GOD - PRO LIFE - PRO GUN...

uh... one of these is not like the other two...

The right wants to return "God" to schools, but they don't want the "God" of the 1920's, the 1800's or of 1776. The want "Reagan's God". The "American God of prosperity and property privilege".

Sorry folks, that ain't Christ. This country's lost its soul, and I don't know if we can get it back. Gun control works in other countries because other countries don't have a national religion focused on material possessions and the firearms required to protect those possessions.

So no Fred, it's not "the GUNS". It's because the soul of this nation has rotted out from the center.

Martin Luther King brought about an enormous amount of change regarding civil rights for black citizens... and he did so without brandishing a single firearm. Though it was a firearm that took him down.

It's the same old story over and over again, given the choice between enlightenment and darkness... the people will always choose the darkness...

But you have a custom that I should release someone to you at the Passover. Do you therefore want me to release to you the King of the Jews?”
Then they all cried again, saying, “Not this Man, but Barabbas!”



You, who are on the road
Must have a code
That you can live by
And so become yourself
Because the past is just a goodbye

Teach your children well
Their father's hell
Did slowly go by
And feed them on your dreams
The one they pick's
The one you'll know by

Don't you ever ask them, "Why?"
If they told you, you would cry
So, just look at them and sigh
And know they love you

And you of tender years (Can you hear and do you care)
Can't know the fears (And can you see)
That your elders grew by (We must be free)
And so please help (To teach your children)
Them with your youth (What you believe in)
They seek the truth (Make a world)
Before they can die (That we can live in)

Teach your parents well
Their children's hell
Will slowly go by
And feed them on your dreams
The one they pick's
The one you'll know by

Don't you ever ask them, "Why?"
If they told you, you would cry
So, just look at them and sigh
And know they love you
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Faldaguy
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Re: I just don't understand...

Post by Faldaguy »

crfriend » Fri May 27, 2022 11:39 pm wrote:
Fred in Skirts wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 7:07 pm
Lets instead put the blame where it really belongs...
1. The parents
2. The church
3. The school
3a. The teachers
4. And society
I've got a more nuanced view on the matter and here's where I'd beg to differ:

1) Society. Where has compassion gone in our modern world? Compassion for our fellow humans, neighbours, and "all animals great and small". Where has it gone? Without that, all manner of otherwise incomprehensible acts become possible.

I'm reluctant to add to this thread as it is so likely to get off track into a flame war without looking at the underpinnings of these issues. The links posted suggest just that -- a great flap about issues of gender ID and this time it is not Democrats raping and eating kids at a pizza joint; but teachers..... The recent (again) revelations about the massive number of Indian kids dying at the hands of 'church' schools for decades got but a brief notice....

Anyway, I quite agree with Carl that we need to look at what underpins the kinds of social breakdowns we are seeing, and indeed lack of compassion is a key factor. In the US in particular the notion of "individual" freedom has gone way overboard, losing all sense of being a 'society' as well. Why is this, and does it matter? I will posit that INEQUALITY is a key component. If you track the growth in economic inequality, you will find a parallel in social ills. One easy spot to see such is in the 'war on drugs' and especially the engagement of gangs (here or other countries), poor neighborhoods (often black) you see a population trying to survive in the world about them which is pictured in glowing images of prosperity, that they have no realistic means of joining of achieving. Had we had some compassion, provided education and opportunity without prejudice, might some of those that turned to gangs and drugs money to survive followed more productive paths?

Worship of the almighty dollar can be seen at the root of the greed and indifference to others that has exacerbated our social ills.

Thank you all who have boldly pointed a finger at the insane US gun culture. No, it is not the gun -- it is the person behind it, and the people who think the gun is the solution. When for God's sake will we ever learn that you don't win friends, you don't solve problems, with violence. The gun is the cowards way. The "Christian" philosophy is ostensibly based on LOVE & Compassion .... where has it gone; Where have all of the flowers gone....?
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Pdxfashionpioneer
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Re: I just don't understand...

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

by Fred in Skirts » Fri May 27, 2022 11:07 am

OK! Here we go again putting the blame on an in animate object. "THE GUN"
Lets instead put the blame where it really belongs...
1. The parents
2. The church
3. The school
3a. The teachers
4. And society


American parents, churches, schools, teachers and society aren't that much different than their counterparts in all of the other developed nations. Nor do we have any more people with mental health issues.

What we do have is a whole lot more guns in private hands! 120 per 100 population by the best count. I don't think we have that many registered private vehicles.

The US has more gun deaths than deaths caused by automobile accidents. Gun deaths are the leading cause of death of young people. 54% of gun deaths are suicides.

So, while it's indisputable that somebody's got to pull the trigger to cause a gun death; if there weren't so many so available in these United States we wouldn't have so many gun deaths. Period.

And the state-by-state statistics uphold that. The rate of gun deaths in a state is directly correlated to the percentage of adults in that state who own guns. Along with that, the rate of gun deaths in a state also tracks with the laxity of the state's gun laws. For instance, Texas has the most lenient gun laws and the highest rate of gun deaths.

By the by, the Uvalde, TX elementary school had all of the security features that the NRA says all schools need.

That leaves the number of guns, the lack of effective gun safety laws that nearly every other developed nation has and the distinctly American fixation on firearms. (Our overseas compatriots are right; no private individual needs a weapon of war such as an AR-15 or an AK-47. The only thing those firearms are good for is hunting species homosapien.)
Last edited by Pdxfashionpioneer on Mon May 30, 2022 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I just don't understand...

Post by Bodycon »

crfriend wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:39 pm It's time to fix the problem from an entirely different angle than ever more draconian "enforcement" and encroachment on personal liberties.
This prevailing attitude is where the USA is going wrong. You do not have efficient enforcement and in no way could it ever be described as draconian. Yes it is about the person, but if you cannot control the person you need to control the tool. The rest of the world has learned that some personal liberties have to be tempered to provide wider societies needs to be met. You have speed limits don't you? In this case the right to life and freedom of children is more important.

If you gave a 3 year old child a baseball bat and they hit someone with it, bashed your car and smashed your windows, you would of course teach the child right and wrong, but until they had learned their lesson you would take the baseball bat away or at best replace it with a plastic version that could do less harm.

Consider that USA society is full of 3 year olds with baseball bats, what do you do?
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Re: I just don't understand...

Post by denimini »

To drive on the road we need to be of a certain age, have a test to obtain a licence and register a car. We seem to accept these requirements for something that is designed as well as possible to preserve lives but could accidentally cause fatality.
Why can't people accept similar requirements for something that is actually designed to cause fatality?

Australia had a massacre in 1996 and we did something about it soon after. No disgruntled, hot headed teenager can walk in and buy a gun anymore. I am not saying that there will never be a massacre again but the chances are greatly minimized.

I have firearms, as an aid to food self-sufficiency and disposing of feral animals that endanger our native wildlife, and I am happy to comply with the regulation. I have only single shots as if you can't hit a stationary target with the first shot then you will have no hope of hitting a moving target on the second. Why would someone need a self-loading firearm with a magazine of 20, 50 or more rounds? Professional shooters around here have repeating rifles (manual loading) with a maximum of 4 round magazine.
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Re: I just don't understand...

Post by crfriend »

Bodycon wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 8:11 am
crfriend wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:39 pm It's time to fix the problem from an entirely different angle than ever more draconian "enforcement" and encroachment on personal liberties.
This prevailing attitude is where the USA is going wrong. You do not have efficient enforcement and in no way could it ever be described as draconian.
The general consensus -- and observed reactions -- do not agree. Folks are whipped up to the extent that there's more demand for draconian measures than ever. My rather nuanced argument gets lost in the noise and the fury. This is what happens when the ignorant get frightened by their handlers/governments; they stop thinking. I recognise that the existing measures -- no matter how much more we may "tighten the noose" have not worked, are not working, and, by extrapolation, will not work going forward. Thus it's a matter of deploying alternate thought and alternate strategies. The "old thinking" has demonstrably and abjectly failed; it's time to give something else a chance.

As far as regulations and enforcement go, it's largely down to an individual's locale. Texas is notoriously lax when it comes to regulation on firearms; Massachusetts is the polar opposite where it's extremely difficult to get a permit and to retain it. The rules on storage alone are enough to baffle people -- and Heaven help you if somebody without authorisation gets hold of a firearm you own!
quote]Yes it is about the person, but if you cannot control the person you need to control the tool.[/quote]
This is fallacious thinking and simply does not work because "where there's a will, there's a way". Hence the old adage of "Outlaw 'foo' and only outlaws will have 'foo'."

Faldaguy added an interesting -- and accurate -- observation in that inequality is likely fostering some of the toxicity in modern society, and it does so by removing hope from the equation leaving the future a stark and horrible place to ponder. No wonder the youth of today seem completely rudderless. Unfortunately, that problem will not get solved any time soon.
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