The Importance of Punctuation

Non-fashion, non-skirt, non-gender discussions. If your post is related to fashion, skirts or gender, please choose one of the forums above for it.
Pleats
Active Member
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:02 am
Location: Dayton Ohio

Re: The Importance of Punctuation

Post by Pleats »

A line of text can be interpreted different ways depending on punctuation. One debate is the Oxford Comma. A nice video on the debate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptM7Fzy ... nel=TED-Ed

You can even get a t-shirt on the Oxford Comma Preservation Society:

Image
User avatar
Sinned
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 5804
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:28 pm
Location: York, England

Re: The Importance of Punctuation

Post by Sinned »

I tend to not use the Oxford comma but that was the convention when I was at primary school. For me it doesn't matter which you use as long as you are consistent.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
geron
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 386
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:31 pm
Location: Surrey

Re: The Importance of Punctuation

Post by geron »

Despite having spent some happy years in Oxford, I dislike the Oxford comma because it doesn't add to or clarify the meaning. It's just extra clutter.
User avatar
alexthebird
Distinguished Member
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:37 pm
Location: Philadelphia USA

Re: The Importance of Punctuation

Post by alexthebird »

geron wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:25 pm Despite having spent some happy years in Oxford, I dislike the Oxford comma because it doesn't add to or clarify the meaning. It's just extra clutter.
Oh but it does clarify meaning. The classic example is a dedication to "my parents, Sigmund Freud and Queen Elizabeth." Is the writer dedicating his/her work to 4 people (mom, dad, sigmund, and the queen) or 2 people, his mom (Queen Elizabeth) and dad (Sigmund Freud).

There can be real-life consequences as well. I'm quoting from https://thewritelife.com/is-the-oxford-comma-necessary/ but there was a legal case in which a truck drivers union was entitled to overtime with certain exceptions. The exceptions included the activities "...storing, packing for shipment or distribution of..." The company was in the business of distribution and took the position that distribution was a separate activity than packing for shipment and was thus exempt. The drivers said that without the Oxford comma, the exemption only included packing for distribution, not distribution itself, and thus their work was not exempt from OT.

The court found in favor of the drivers and awarded $10 million.

Punctuation counts.
User avatar
Sinned
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 5804
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:28 pm
Location: York, England

Re: The Importance of Punctuation

Post by Sinned »

I will still probably not use it. You've not really convinced me for my normal writing style.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
geron
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 386
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:31 pm
Location: Surrey

Re: The Importance of Punctuation

Post by geron »

In my experience, the Oxford Comma is rarely seen in UK publications -- which is an odd thing if we invented it. I can't find my copy of Eats Shoots and Leaves, but G V Carey's authoritative Mind the Stop (1939, 1958) argues against it except in cases where there's a real risk of ambiguity, and Gowers' Plain Words (1954) isn't keen on it but notes that its use seemed to be increasing. He may have been wrong about that, at least in UK usage.

Alex's example of a legal decision is a US one. The case might have gone the other way in the UK, where legal draughtsmen seem to avoid punctuation almost entirely. But that may be changing too:
https://www.onhandcounsel.co.uk/growing ... ut-commas/

I think the real problem is that the comma implies a micro-pause in speech or a change in the intonation heard inside your head, and the Oxford Comma tends to place one where it wouldn't occur in speaking aloud.
User avatar
Uncle Al
Moderator
Posts: 3861
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:07 pm
Location: Duncanville, TX USA

Re: The Importance of Punctuation

Post by Uncle Al »

I'm now the proud owner, in paperback, of "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" :D
Eats, Shoots & Leaves JPG 2022-05-19.jpg
Will start reading in this weekend :D

Uncle Al
:mrgreen: :ugeek: :mrgreen:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Kilted Organist/Musician
Grand Musician of the Grand Lodge, I.O.O.F. of Texas 2008-2009, 2015-2016,
2018-202 ? (and the beat goes on ;) )
When asked 'Why the Kilt?'
I respond-The why is F.T.H.O.I. (For The H--- Of It)
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14432
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: The Importance of Punctuation

Post by crfriend »

Uncle Al wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:53 pmI'm now the proud owner, in paperback, of "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" :D
You're going to love it. I've got a hard-cover version that I keep close track of.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
rivegauche
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:05 pm

Re: The Importance of Punctuation

Post by rivegauche »

I have a whole stack of these books. I am a fan of the Oxford comma and I write a lot. Editors have commented on it but it has never been edited out. Many years ago I read a particularly good example involving a Doctor and a woman next door, and the comma made a huge difference to the nature of his interaction with this woman - I wish I still had that story.
RADIATE
Member
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:39 am

Re: The Importance of Punctuation

Post by RADIATE »

I tend to laugh at the grammar Nazis. You knew what I meant, & minor errors in punctuation do not change the content.
Not everyone agrees, particularly in the legal world.
Have to laugh at the Ten-Million-Dollar comma.
https://johnsonwebbert.com/news/a-few-w ... ial-comma/
User avatar
r.m.anderson
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2601
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:25 pm
Location: Burnsville MN USA

Re: The Importance of Punctuation

Post by r.m.anderson »

Would you be using the COMMA in your text messaging ?
"YES SKIRTING MATTERS"!
"Kilt-On" -or- as the case may be "Skirt-On" !
WHY ?
Isn't wearing a kilt enough?
Well a skirt will do in a pinch!
Make mine short and don't you dare think of pinching there !
geron
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 386
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:31 pm
Location: Surrey

Re: The Importance of Punctuation

Post by geron »

RADIATE wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 8:45 pm I tend to laugh at the grammar Nazis. You knew what I meant, & minor errors in punctuation do not change the content.
That may be true, but the function of a subeditor or copy editor is to give the reader as smooth a ride as possible by eliminating distractions such as inconsistent spelling and capitalization and, er, erratic punctuation. It's one of those things that you don't notice when it's been done well.
Faldaguy
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1122
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:09 am
Location: Costa Rica

Re: The Importance of Punctuation

Post by Faldaguy »

I stumbled across this last night when looking at info on Quinceaneras, (15th birthday celebration, coming out, for girls in Latin traditions) I'm pretty sure it is not quite what they meant -- but, hey -- maybe the world is changing!

"Young men should be dressed in a sports coat, tie, dress pants, and freshly polished dress shoes. However, if the quinceañera is occurring during the late afternoon or evening, dressing up a bit more is recommended. A knee-length or modest mini-dress and a pair of cute (yet comfortable) heels make an ideal ensemble.Sep 27, 2021"
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14432
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: The Importance of Punctuation

Post by crfriend »

Faldaguy wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 1:40 amI stumbled across this last night when looking at info on Quinceaneras, (15th birthday celebration, coming out, for girls in Latin traditions) I'm pretty sure it is not quite what they meant -- but, hey -- maybe the world is changing!
This topic got quite the writeup in the local Worcester (MA/USA) paper several years ago, and it parallels the "debut" of WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) girls quite handily, but a wee bit earlier. "Coming out" in this sense, has nothing to do whatsoever with what the term "means" today; it's merely the time when the young woman makes her debut onto the "adult" scene.
"Young men should be dressed in a sports coat, tie, dress pants, and freshly polished dress shoes. However, if the quinceañera is occurring during the late afternoon or evening, dressing up a bit more is recommended. A knee-length or modest mini-dress and a pair of cute (yet comfortable) heels make an ideal ensemble.Sep 27, 2021"
Keep the boys in their place because this is a time for the girl to shine. It is what it is.

Note that there is no such rite of passage for boys.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
Uncle Al
Moderator
Posts: 3861
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:07 pm
Location: Duncanville, TX USA

Re: The Importance of Punctuation

Post by Uncle Al »

crfriend wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 1:59 am <snip> it parallels the "debut" of WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) girls quite handily, but a wee bit earlier.
"Coming out" in this sense, has nothing to do whatsoever with what the term "means" today; it's merely the time
when the young woman makes her debut onto the "adult" scene.<snip>
With my Aviation background, I immediately thought WASP = Women's Airforce Service Pilots, organized during World War II as
part of the US Army Air Forces to ferry aircraft and to test new aircraft. The organization was disbanded in 1944.

So, depending upon the context or how the acronym is used, WASP has several definitions.

Just my $.02 worth :D

Uncle Al
:mrgreen: :ugeek: :mrgreen:
Kilted Organist/Musician
Grand Musician of the Grand Lodge, I.O.O.F. of Texas 2008-2009, 2015-2016,
2018-202 ? (and the beat goes on ;) )
When asked 'Why the Kilt?'
I respond-The why is F.T.H.O.I. (For The H--- Of It)
Post Reply