Pressing the "HOT" button

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moonshadow
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Pressing the "HOT" button

Post by moonshadow »

Mods,

Forgive me but this is the most center/left place I'm aware of and I'd like to pose some serious, gentlemanly questions about this issue. Given my the location of my domicile, and the people in my local orbit, I often only get one side of this debate. After reading the Tennessee bully thread, I concluded that most members here lean left on this issue...

My question is not to stir the pot, but a point of genuine curiosity.

I'd respectfully ask those who participate in this thread remain civil and polite, and if at any time it gets too heated, I won't feel slighted if the thread gets locked...

It is, after all, the most important issue in all of politics, and in fact, that is actually my question.

Why?

Why is abortion the most important issue of all of politics?

I understand it's important, but I would imagine that this issue actually doesn't physically touch most voters the way other pressing matters do like healthcare, gun rights, religion, economic theories (socialism/capitalism/communism), LGBT, racial matters, climate change, etc. Granted, I understand that there is some overlap with abortion with regards to healthcare and religion in particular, whereas the hard left looks at abortion as vital in women's health care and the hard [religious] right takes a very dim view of abortion over the matter of essentially ending what would eventually become a viable human life.

I just don't understand, with the thousands on top of thousands of other issues plaguing life right now, why does abortion seem to be the issue that gets virtually ALL voters to the polls?

I've said in previous post that I consider myself pro-life, and generally this about sums it up for me. But I feel this way because I view abortion as an unfortunate reality of our society and customs. Of course I hate to hear of a would be human life being terminated, I can't imagine anyone being happy of such news. I do NOT believe in judging or casting stones at women who have them. So in that light, I believe myself to be by definition "pro-life".

Now do I think they [abortions] should be banned or encouraged legalized? [0]

Honestly I really don't care either way. And frankly I believe there is nothing short of at least a few hundred larger fish to fry at the moment, mainly that it makes no sense to be pro-life but against healthcare for all. Health after all, being a primary factor of life. Do not misunderstand me, I have long accepted that the Democratic party has just about as much interest in fixing the health care issue in this country as the Republican... they have no such interest.

Personally I have a suspicion that abortion is the issue that all politicians like to jump on because it is a perfect political catch 22. There really is no perfect answer to the problem. The fact of the matter is, this situation involves two lives. The life of the mother and the life of the fetus, which will eventually become a baby, a full, bonafide, air breathing human life. Regardless of the legislation, the rights of one life or the other will be discarded. How does one support the rights of the mother but disregard the rights of the baby? How does one support the rights of the baby but disregard the rights of the mother?

It's the perfect political stalemate to tie up the system and see to it that nothing else EVER gets done in this country.

Frankly I have long struggled with this issue. And I've been questioned on it by several people over the years, and I can only look down at the floor, shake my head and simply utter a faint "I don't know" when pressed on the abortion issue.

Now I imagine some members will chime in here and take me to task about my apparent disregard for women's rights. They will encourage me to support the right for a woman to choose whether to keep her baby or not. Let me be proactive and ask a a few questions to those people:

Why should I? I have several plaguing issues going on at any given time. Most of us do. I have to deal with the public, medical bills, rising inflation, keeping the lights on, a roof over my head, staying employed, keeping the vehicles running and road worthy... why should abortion matter to me? I wouldn't expect a woman in an abortion clinic to cast her vote based on issues that matter to me, I wouldn't expect her to worry whether I'm filing bankruptcy over medial bills, or whether I'm about to lose my home in foreclosure, or whether the transmission goes out in my car.

And what about the father's rights? What if my wife and I wanted to have a baby, and we made it happen, but three months, or hell, even five weeks into the pregnancy she just up and changed her mind and terminated the fetus? Note I stated "wanted to have a baby", this child was not a mistake, accident, or product of rape or incest... what about the father's rights?

But lets flip it, what if a guy accidentally gets his girlfriend pregnant with consensual sex. She wants the baby, but doesn't want the father. They split up, she has the kid, but he is forced to pay child support for the next two decades.

But lets make it more interesting... lets say she raped him and got pregnant. Now what?

It's the perfect political issue.

Thoughts?

[0] Edit: "encouraged" was not the word I was looking for, partlyscot caught it and I have made the correction.
Last edited by moonshadow on Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pressing the "HOT" button

Post by Kirbstone »

You spend an awful lot of time typing long posts &c into your computer, Moon

Each to their own.

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Re: Pressing the "HOT" button

Post by moonshadow »

Kirbstone wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:26 pm
You spend an awful lot of time typing long posts &c into your computer, Moon

Each to their own.

Tom
'Bout a half hour. I've wasted more time on sillier things.

But considering and/or discussing the philosophy of life is never time wasted.

And complex subjects can not be discussed with one liners.

I could have just said "I'm pro-life" and left it at that, but then you'd likely assume that I also belive "abortion is murder", which may not be the case of my opinion.

After reading my lost post , you'll likely walk away knowing that Moon's view in abortion is:

"Abortion is complicated".
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Re: Pressing the "HOT" button

Post by JennC03 »

Kirbstone wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:26 pm
You spend an awful lot of time typing long posts &c into your computer, Moon

Each to their own.

Tom
A mind is such a wonderful thing that it's good to express what's on it.Why be a buzz kill to someone's writing than to just scroll past if it's too long for your liking to read?

You're right to each their own 🙄
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Re: Pressing the "HOT" button

Post by SkirtsDad »

Some valid points in there Moon. I cannot see why people are against healthcare.

On the subject of voting, I vote to look after other people. Whoever is in power it's unlikely to make a significant difference to my life. A few quid more or a few quid less; it doesn't matter. What I am concerned about is the welfare of those less fortunate. In the UK support for mental health, drug addiction, homelessness etc. etc. etc. has been cut successively over the last 11 years with drastic effect. Unfortunately the right wing media hides this by pointing fingers at immigrants, drug users, criminals etc. (what did Trump say about the Mexicans?) so people blame others for the problems rather than the government.

We are lucky not to have and abortion issue to worry about (yet!) but if there was I would definitely bear that in mind when voting. When it comes to abortion, putting aside the termination week limit, put yourself in the shoes of a woman that has been forced to give birth after rape because some state banned abortion. "Sorry darling, your rapist father didn't send you a birthday card again this year". Might as well blame her for being raped at the same time, as happens in other countries. Anyway, IMO, if someone is anti-abortion, don't have one, but don't try to decide what others should do.
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Re: Pressing the "HOT" button

Post by pelmut »

SkirtsDad wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:23 pm
... if someone is anti-abortion, don't have one, but don't try to decide what others should do.
That is the key point.
moonshadow wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:42 pm
Why is abortion the most important issue of all of politics?
The abortion is the reason a few people get worked up, but far more people get worked up when those few assume that they have the right to tell other people how to run their lives.  Abortion is important, but not as important to most people as the freedom to make their own decisions.
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Re: Pressing the "HOT" button

Post by Kirbstone »

Absolutely no offence meant, Moon & Jenn,

I'm in agreement with all the points you made. It's very close to home in our own family here.

At age only 16 one of our granddaughters had unprotected pleasure with a boy just one year her senior, resulting in our (adored) Gt.Granddaughter no 1. We left the final decision to go ahead with her pregnancy to the granddaughter herself, which was right.

Subsequently she has reverted to being the rebellious teenager and doesn't want to be a mother at all, so guess who gets to look after the little mite quite a lot....her 75-yr.-old Gt.Grandmamma, MOH. Meanwhile she has split up with the boy (father) who is a serious loose cannon in my opinion. A few months ago he was bullying & threatening to MOH in her (our) own kitchen, fortunately witnessed my me.

I evicted him on the spot, as that was by no means his first transgression.

Our visiting seriously clever elder daughter assessing the situation suggested adoption of the baby into a home with both a mum & dad around and the means to look after her. A wrench it would be for us, but ultimately perhaps for the best. There'll be no decision there for a while yet.

Tom
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Re: Pressing the "HOT" button

Post by moonshadow »

pelmut wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:11 pm
SkirtsDad wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:23 pm
... if someone is anti-abortion, don't have one, but don't try to decide what others should do.
That is the key point.
moonshadow wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:42 pm
Why is abortion the most important issue of all of politics?
The abortion is the reason a few people get worked up, but far more people get worked up when those few assume that they have the right to tell other people how to run their lives.  Abortion is important, but not as important to most people as the freedom to make their own decisions.
I see your points as well.

Again, I reiterate, that my issue with abortion as a whole is that it's an issue at all, or at least one as big as it is. But to make it clear, if I could choose one of two legislative issues to correct, with option 1 being to uphold Roe v Wade (the U.S. abortion precedent), or option 2 to bring about universal healthcare. I'd choose option 2 any day of the week without hesitation. Option 2 simply saves more lives.

But frankly, I'd just like to see the issue placed on the back burner for a while while we get some of these other pressing matters squared away (climate change, covid, healthcare, immigration, the economy, shortages, runaway inflation, the China issue, North Korea, the Middle East, dependence on fossil fuels, employment law, education (k-12), education (college or trade school), etc. But we can't because... abortion. And I think these politicians know it.

The abortion is the reason a few people get worked up, but far more people get worked up when those few assume that they have the right to tell other people how to run their lives. Abortion is important, but not as important to most people as the freedom to make their own decisions.

The issue is, who advocates for the one who can't speak? I live in a region surrounded by people who are strongly pro-life. They are not against "women's rights", but their concern is the fetus, the "soon to be" baby. What about those rights? It's an interesting philosophical consideration.

And to be fair, even many conservatives make exceptions regarding abortion in cases of rape, incest, or danger to the mother. But let's face it, even in these extreme cases, is it the fault of the fetus? She didn't ask to be conceived. It's somewhat ironic that the left's rally cry is "women's rights" when I'm being told that during the first part of pregnancy, all fetuses are female.

I do understand however points like AOC made when criticizing the Texas law regarding six weeks. I get what she's saying about a mother not being sure if she's pregnant or not at six weeks as it is common for some women to be late on their menstrual cycle.

If only there was some kind of a pill a woman could take the morning after she thought she might have conceived.... Seems like that would solve everything.
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Re: Pressing the "HOT" button

Post by JennC03 »

moonshadow wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:29 pm
pelmut wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:11 pm
SkirtsDad wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:23 pm
... if someone is anti-abortion, don't have one, but don't try to decide what others should do.
That is the key point.
moonshadow wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:42 pm
Why is abortion the most important issue of all of politics?
The abortion is the reason a few people get worked up, but far more people get worked up when those few assume that they have the right to tell other people how to run their lives.  Abortion is important, but not as important to most people as the freedom to make their own decisions.
I see your points as well.

Again, I reiterate, that my issue with abortion as a whole is that it's an issue at all, or at least one as big as it is. But to make it clear, if I could choose one of two legislative issues to correct, with option 1 being to uphold Roe v Wade (the U.S. abortion precedent), or option 2 to bring about universal healthcare. I'd choose option 2 any day of the week without hesitation. Option 2 simply saves more lives.

But frankly, I'd just like to see the issue placed on the back burner for a while while we get some of these other pressing matters squared away (climate change, covid, healthcare, immigration, the economy, shortages, runaway inflation, the China issue, North Korea, the Middle East, dependence on fossil fuels, employment law, education (k-12), education (college or trade school), etc. But we can't because... abortion. And I think these politicians know it.

The abortion is the reason a few people get worked up, but far more people get worked up when those few assume that they have the right to tell other people how to run their lives. Abortion is important, but not as important to most people as the freedom to make their own decisions.

The issue is, who advocates for the one who can't speak? I live in a region surrounded by people who are strongly pro-life. They are not against "women's rights", but their concern is the fetus, the "soon to be" baby. What about those rights? It's an interesting philosophical consideration.

And to be fair, even many conservatives make exceptions regarding abortion in cases of rape, incest, or danger to the mother. But let's face it, even in these extreme cases, is it the fault of the fetus? She didn't ask to be conceived. It's somewhat ironic that the left's rally cry is "women's rights" when I'm being told that during the first part of pregnancy, all fetuses are female.

I do understand however points like AOC made when criticizing the Texas law regarding six weeks. I get what she's saying about a mother not being sure if she's pregnant or not at six weeks as it is common for some women to be late on their menstrual cycle.

If only there was some kind of a pill a woman could take the morning after she thought she might have conceived.... Seems like that would solve everything.
There is a pill called the morning after pill.

Morning after pills can be used after sex to stop a pregnancy before it starts.
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Re: Pressing the "HOT" button

Post by crfriend »

I'm only going to "scratch the surface" a bit (and keep in mind how glass is cut) and then go quiet for a bit.

What we have here is the inherent conflict of emotion (belief) and rationality (thought) in action -- and it's fanned to an insane level by agitators who have axes to grind.

Is one perfectly "right" and the other perfectly "wrong"? Like almost every other answer in this analogue world we live on this one is answered in shades of grey. Where it gets entirely pernicious is where a binary black/white approach is adopted and the various "sides" are whipped into a frenzy -- and that's where the USA is today.

Note that the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is properly translated as "Thou shalt not murder". "Good Christians" have no compulsion against killing in the name of their god -- even killing in cold blood (the ultimate definition of murder). So why the whining about abortion? The ones that are against abortion are also likely solidly supporting capital punishment (and if that's not murder I don't know what is)? They also oppose the humane ending of life for those who are terminally ill and suffering because of their illness. Where's the rationale in that? Why should a child be mandated to be brought into an increasingly hostile world for a life of misery because of a moment of indiscretion on the part of the (would-be) parents? Where's the rationale in that?
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Re: Pressing the "HOT" button

Post by pelmut »

moonshadow wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:29 pm
...If only there was some kind of a pill a woman could take the morning after she thought she might have conceived.... Seems like that would solve everything.
There is a 'morning after' pill and also an intrauterine device for stopping unwanted pregnancy, but a rape victim might be in such a state that she doesn't think of that until it is too late.  An incest victim might be prevented from taking any action at all, in case it incriminates the pepetrator.

Some people believe all sorts of old wives' tales about contraception and may think that some bizarre practice will prevent pregnancy -- or they may have taken proper precautions but become pregnant as the result of some sort of mistake.  It could be a couple of months before the truth dawned on them.
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Re: Pressing the "HOT" button

Post by Sinned »

Moon, I didn't really want my example to get into this area but since you have. I may get called out over what I am about to say and, if so, then fair enough. Unlike Tom I have no experience of this area so am just going by gut feeling. I could be wrong in everything I say in which case I apologise.

There is no good answer to the issue of "rights" between baby and mother. Supporting one means denying the other. Up to the point it is born it is not a separate individual but a part of the mother. It is a philosophical point whether the foetus can be considered the mother's "possession" to be discarded for whatever reason and hasn't really been settled, only fudged. You can't legally register a name or other statuses to a baby that is still in the womb but it apparently still has some "rights". I know that the medical profession recognises its various stages of development and the law ascribes limits as to when abortion can take place based on the chances of the foetus surviving, if born at that point and whether at any point it can be considered as a conscious, thinking entity.

Whatever one's personal take on this is, and it may change when one is put in a position where suddenly the issue becomes important to one, abortion is here to stay and cannot really be denied to the prospective mother despite any laws that are passed as there is someone somewhere that will carry out the procedure. That someone may be back-street and ultimately cost the mother's life. To me the Republicans in Texas have passed this law under the pretext of being pro-life but in actuality it is just for mischief, to cause trouble for the Democrats. Throwing the cat among the pigeons, so to speak. It has been described to have been framed by lawyers, probably over many months to be really difficult to overturn. They just don't seem to care about the many women that will be caught in the crossfire.

I don't get worked up about it but would probably not vote for anyone that is against abortion but it's not high on my list of things. As to the right of the father in the abortion decision then that hasn't really been settled either.

I've struck all this out as I don't know if it's really what I wanted to say. I may end up deleting this post.
Last edited by Sinned on Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pressing the "HOT" button

Post by Freedomforall »

Moon you said something a while back that seems so true and I think of it often. You basically said if it wasn't for liberals then conservatives would not have anywhere that served liquor by the drink on Sundays. I also think you are on to something about "divide and conquer". Germany used this tactic by placing members of the already dominant Tutsi minority in positions of power.

The topic of children and old people always seems to surface any time the government wants to pass a bill. Children is an especially hot topic. The subject of their health and education always seems included with many large budget items. However, if you take time to read the bills then children's education is typically only a small percentage of what is in the bill. I do not wish to digress.
Children whether born or unborn seems to strike the heart strings of almost everyone no matter their polictical beliefs, etc. Hence one of the reasons person arrested for child abuse are typically seperated from the general population, lest they be killed by the general population of prisoners. Even inmates (not all) are protective of children.

I agree there are many pressing issues at hand today and the issue of abortion is still at the forefront even though it seemed to have been settled long ago with Roe v. Wade. However, one of the laws are made in this country is through court cases that can become case law. Case laws influence laws and legislators use them to modify current laws or make new ones. The Supreme Court has been sheduled for some time to hear an abortion case in the coming Fall. This case is Dobb's v. Jackson Women's Health Organization. From what I understand the Texas Legislature wanted to pass a law before the Supreme Court hears the Dobb's case. Apparently, they think the Supreme Court's decision on the Dobb's case could somehow have affected their new law so they wanted to hurry up and pass it. I am not exactly sure how it all works.

As for the rights of men, I hear you. The pendulum has slowly begun to change. I hope that someday men will have more rights when it comes to their children.
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Re: Pressing the "HOT" button

Post by partlyscot »

Now do I think they [abortions] should be banned or encouraged?


Encouraged? Please tell me that was a slip of the tongue.
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Re: Pressing the "HOT" button

Post by moonshadow »

partlyscot wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:34 am
Now do I think they [abortions] should be banned or encouraged?


Encouraged? Please tell me that was a slip of the tongue.
I think everyone knows what I meant. The word I was looking for may have even "legalized". Sometimes my brain thinks one thing and my hands write something else...

Good thing I'm not running for office... though if my brain deteriorates, I'd likely fit right in.
Sinned wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:51 pm
I've struck all this out as I don't know if it's really what I wanted to say. I may end up deleting this post.
I hope you let the post stand Dennis. I value your opinion.
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