Covid 19

[Big and Bashful]

I am a bit cautious that there is under-reporting of the prevalence side effects. This is based on friends of people I know having dropped dead or ending up in hospital within days of having the vaccine. One was aged 35 and another was 46, although the others were over 70 and over 80. I realise that it's a game of statistics, and I think it's really important that vulnerable people are vaccinated, however, the argument that the benefit outweighs the risk for people (unless vulnerable) of under the age of, let's say, 35 is somewhat dubious to say the least. In the case of my son, aged 19, the risk of him dying from Covid is compatible with the chance of him getting struck by lightening.

Do I think they should keep many of the restrictions here in the UK? Well, yes, for two reasons: 1) the government does not appear to have dropped its idea of letting the virus run riot, and therefore that's the only way to temper the spread, and 2) this government has, and still is, intentionally underfunding the NHS and, although hospitalisations are considerably lower than in previous waves (thanks to the vaccinations) the strain of underfunding which has led to cuts in bed numbers, means that dealing with Covid has to be a priority over treating other diseases. Some people will almost certainly die before they get treated for cancer or whatever.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... AZ_DAP.pdf

figures on A-Z

If I am reading that pdf correctly, out of the people who reported side effects, 1.2 in 1000 died. What is the cohort those stats were compiled from? All that tells me is that approximately 998.8 people who reported side effects survived. Without knowing how many vaccinations in total the figures don't mean anything significant. Just about everyone I know is now fully vaccinated, one or two had sore arms, a few felt bad for a day or so afterwards, none have told me they are now dead. I am happy to report that I am also not dead, hang on, let me check... No, not dead, I appear to be breathing.

[crfriend]

I had a bit of a rough go following my second jab that jab that laid me low for 2 days. However, I, too, am still looking at the green side of the grass, just like most everybody else who's been vaccinated.

Vaccination programmes are always risky things, and this one is no exception. However, the overall results indicate that it's better -- for the individual and for society -- to get the jab even at the risk.

If you don't want to get vaccinated, I understand and sympathise, but please stay away from me, my family, and my friends. Don't transfer your problems to me.

[rode_kater]

https://www.msn.com/fr-fr/lifestyle/tru ... li=BBoJvSH

concerns cardiac problems due to pfizer and moderna as signaled by WHO

That's pretty impressive. The estimated incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis are on the order of 3 per 10,000 per year. So in the Europe alone that would translate to ~150,000 people per year. That they've attributed some of those cases to a vaccine requires some pretty good statistical methods.

Interesting to think that something could be affecting hundreds of thousands of people, yet the chance you know someone who is affected is tiny.

Not losing any sleep here.

[crfriend]

To the conspiracy theorists: The US Surgeon General is onto you.

Knock it off.

[Coder]

To the conspiracy theorists: The US Surgeon General is onto you.

Knock it off.

This just confirms they really are out to get you

Don't get me wrong - I loathe false and misleading information. But I think there's a place for thoughtful discussion and analysis about *anything* in this world. Medicine in particular is such a wide and varied field.

Obviously I'm talking in generalities here - I have to deal with debunking a lot of these sorts of misinformation campaigns by scammy doctors and it's annoying. However, instead of asking tech companies to shut them down, maybe the gov't could do some point-by-point analysis of these charlatans and actually counterpoint their claims. If I'm capable of doing this, they should have people on their side as well.

Instead, the gov't and scientists just say "trust us". However, it's difficult to implicitly trust scientists when dr's (who are not scientists) have their own issues. I can count at least ten times when dr's have given my family members (and their friends) poor information, poor options (ie, doing surgery instead of less invasive procedures), and so forth. Every time the system fails a person, it erodes confidence in the system as a whole.

And there is a point where people just want an easy way out, and when someone dangles some herb or supplement at them they think it will solve their ills. Often these things work (I've seen supplements help my parents issues), but just because they work doesn't mean every supplement will work, or that those supplements are what did the job.

My biggest beef are "doctors" or "scientists" who "discover" some compound that "cures" an ailment, and instead of working it through the normal scientific channels, offer it up directly to the public. If their thing really worked, pharma companies would be salivating at using their compound to make tons of money selling it. Most likely they would patent a slight variation and say it was some % better than the natural version.

At the end of the day, though, I just let people be people and as long as my immediate family gets the medical attention they need, let the rest of the world do what they want to do.

[crfriend]

This just confirms they really are out to get you

Which is precisely what the fake-news mongers want you to believe.

Don't get me wrong - I loathe false and misleading information. But I think there's a place for thoughtful discussion and analysis about *anything* in this world. Medicine in particular is such a wide and varied field.

It's a wide and varied field, and, sadly, not a whole lot of people understand how or why it works. The practise of medicine has also changed dramatically in the past few decades and instead of it being a calling where doctors would actively seek cures to what ails the human race, it's turned into a search for treatments that will guarantee a lucrative income-stream for the pharmaceutical and insurance industries for the lifetime of the sufferer.

Instead, the gov't and scientists just say "trust us". However, it's difficult to implicitly trust scientists when dr's (who are not scientists) have their own issues. I can count at least ten times when dr's have given my family members (and their friends) poor information, poor options (ie, doing surgery instead of less invasive procedures), and so forth. Every time the system fails a person, it erodes confidence in the system as a whole.

"We're from the government and we're here to help." is the classic comment heard before everybody runs away. The modern political system, being as thoroughly corrupt as it is, really can't be trusted, and thanks to several decades of anti-science sentiment and attacks on the education system, few understand or trust science any longer. Look at the mess over climate change for an example. The space that was once held by science is now the property of charlatans, hucksters, and frauds. The quiet voice of reason has been so lost in the din that it may as well be baying at the moon.

At the end of the day, though, I just let people be people and as long as my immediate family gets the medical attention they need, let the rest of the world do what they want to do.

That'd be one thing is the actions of another held no threat to me or to those close to me. Therein lies the rub -- those actions (or inactions) can impact my existence.

[Gusto10]

This just confirms they really are out to get you

Which is precisely what the fake-news mongers want you to believe.

Don't get me wrong - I loathe false and misleading information. But I think there's a place for thoughtful discussion and analysis about *anything* in this world. Medicine in particular is such a wide and varied field.

It's a wide and varied field, and, sadly, not a whole lot of people understand how or why it works. The practise of medicine has also changed dramatically in the past few decades and instead of it being a calling where doctors would actively seek cures to what ails the human race, it's turned into a search for treatments that will guarantee a lucrative income-stream for the pharmaceutical and insurance industries for the lifetime of the sufferer.

Instead, the gov't and scientists just say "trust us". However, it's difficult to implicitly trust scientists when dr's (who are not scientists) have their own issues. I can count at least ten times when dr's have given my family members (and their friends) poor information, poor options (ie, doing surgery instead of less invasive procedures), and so forth. Every time the system fails a person, it erodes confidence in the system as a whole.

"We're from the government and we're here to help." is the classic comment heard before everybody runs away. The modern political system, being as thoroughly corrupt as it is, really can't be trusted, and thanks to several decades of anti-science sentiment and attacks on the education system, few understand or trust science any longer. Look at the mess over climate change for an example. The space that was once held by science is now the property of charlatans, hucksters, and frauds. The quiet voice of reason has been so lost in the din that it may as well be baying at the moon.

At the end of the day, though, I just let people be people and as long as my immediate family gets the medical attention they need, let the rest of the world do what they want to do.

That'd be one thing is the actions of another held no threat to me or to those close to me. Therein lies the rub -- those actions (or inactions) can impact my existence.

That does sound almost as a consperacy theorist or Q-anon.

[Gusto10]

https://www.msn.com/fr-fr/lifestyle/tru ... li=BBoJvSH

concerns cardiac problems due to pfizer and moderna as signaled by WHO

That's pretty impressive. The estimated incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis are on the order of 3 per 10,000 per year. So in the Europe alone that would translate to ~150,000 people per year. That they've attributed some of those cases to a vaccine requires some pretty good statistical methods.

Interesting to think that something could be affecting hundreds of thousands of people, yet the chance you know someone who is affected is tiny.

Not losing any sleep here.

Even more I guess if you realise that re-insurens haven't seen an increase in death figures due to covid.

[crfriend]

Even more I guess if you realise that re-insurens haven't seen an increase in death figures due to covid.

What about the third shooter on the Grassy Knoll and Donald Trump still being president?

[rode_kater]

Even more I guess if you realise that re-insurens haven't seen an increase in death figures due to covid.

You got me. I can't figure out what this is supposed to mean.

In 2020 NL registered 10% more deaths than expected for a year, which is far outside normal expectations. But I don't understand what re-insurance has to do with it. In fact, I don't see why insurance companies would even notice since the bulk of the people that died wouldn't have had any life insurance (either because they're old or because they live in area that doesn't have general access life insurance).

[Gusto10]

Even more I guess if you realise that re-insurens haven't seen an increase in death figures due to covid.

You got me. I can't figure out what this is supposed to mean.

In 2020 NL registered 10% more deaths than expected for a year, which is far outside normal expectations. But I don't understand what re-insurance has to do with it. In fact, I don't see why insurance companies would even notice since the bulk of the people that died wouldn't have had any life insurance (either because they're old or because they live in area that doesn't have general access life insurance).

According to information provided by Munchener-Re Life, one of the lagest re-insurers both for Life and Loss, such was not the case. They have access to all mortallity rates due to private and collective pension plans, figures needed to calculate the premiums for your life insurance via e.g. Aegon.
As to the figures in the Netherlands, deaths where covid was a factor, but e.g. a heart attack was the actual cause, it was contributed to the covid as the registration system of the RIVM couldn't cope with more than one cause. There was an article thereon in the NRC if I'm not mistaken.

[Gusto10]

Even more I guess if you realise that re-insurens haven't seen an increase in death figures due to covid.

What about the third shooter on the Grassy Knoll and Donald Trump still being president?

CFR, I do think it's time to call on another moderator as such remarks do not fit a proper moderator. Or is this the behaviour of a New Age Indigo child, coming from another planet (https://www.gaia.com/article/13-signs-y ... digo-child)?

[crfriend]

CFR, I do think it's time to call on another moderator as such remarks do not fit a proper moderator. Or is this the behaviour of a New Age Indigo child, coming from another planet (https://www.gaia.com/article/13-signs-y ... digo-child)?

The least you could do is have the courtesy to get my initials right.

OK, I'll ping the other two moderators and see what they think. If we're going to turn the place a Q-Anon hangout I'll simply resign.

False and misleading information is decidedly unhelpful in stressful times, and sowing FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) is similarly unhelpful. Nobody is asserting that the vaccines in use are 100% safe; what's being asserted is that they are safe enough for use in the general population in an attempt to stop this pathogen in its tracks. Delaying that will only increase the number of variants, some of which may well be worse then the original, and cause hte trajectory to falter and potentially fail. All we're trying to do is avoid another 1917.

Did we lose people to the smallpox and polio vaccines? Yes. Have we lost people due to the SARS-CoV-2 vaccine? Yes. Was the use of vaccine appropriate and efficacious? Note that smallpox is no longer found in the wild, and polio was almost exterminated -- we do not have to worry about them any longer. SARS-CoV-2? We've got a lot of worrying yet to do.

If you don't want to get a shot -- for whatever reason -- then don't. But please move to Wyoming or some other place where most haven't and thus remove yourself as a vector amongst people who have. And please stop spreading FUD. We're still worried about this and don't need more to worry about.

[moonshadow]

If we're going to turn the place a Q-Anon hangout I'll simply resign.

I'd rather you didn't.

False and misleading information is decidedly unhelpful in stressful times, and sowing FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) is similarly unhelpful. Nobody is asserting that the vaccines in use are 100% safe; what's being asserted is that they are safe enough for use in the general population in an attempt to stop this pathogen in its tracks. Delaying that will only increase the number of variants, some of which may well be worse then the original, and cause hte trajectory to falter and potentially fail. All we're trying to do is avoid another 1917.

This reminds me of some of the old arguments I used to hear back when seatbelts became mandatory on all drivers and passengers. The argument was in some very RARE circumstances, when the driver wrecks and needs to be removed from the vehicle quickly, the latch of the buckle may become jammed, or otherwise inaccessable rendering the victim stuck in the car while it burns/sinks/etc..

Nobody speaks of those things much anymore because basically everyone realizes that seatbelts save lives, the very small chance of failure or malfunction of the seatbelt greatly outweigh the risk.

I don't know all of the science and statistics that have been going with these vaccines, but I do know that the general population has been getting these things for well over half a year now, so far we aren't dropping like flies.

Experts say that there are man made factors in this world that are killing us, but strangely enough, the anti-vaxers are silent. Climate change, the amount of needless high fructose corn syrup present in the American food chain, issues with asbestos, the insistence on our for profit health care system that basically kills the poor and un/under-insured long before their time, our significantly out of date infrastructure, our over-reliance on the pharmaceutical industry, lead in drinking water, the list goes on and on....

On climate change, my sister brought up a very chilling point about a year ago when she mentioned of the melting of polar regions exposing pathogens long assumed to be extinct, or even pathogens that we may have never heard of before wreaking havoc on the world's health in general.

Crickets from the Q-Anon people on that one who are have long been bought and paid for by big oil.

[crfriend]

To the Q-Anon contingent: Here's the full text of Surgeon General's Advisory. It's well worth the read. I wonder if anybody will.