Covid 19

[Gusto10]

a just released document:
https://zenodo.org/record/5075888#.YOcVOi1Q3xh

found via https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-57782955

[crfriend]

a just released document:
https://zenodo.org/record/5075888#.YOcVOi1Q3xh

In summary, "... no evidence that SARS-CoV-2 has a laboratory origin". (A proper cut/paste citation was not possible due to source formatting.)

At this point in time, in spite of all other hints -- including the presence of several high-profile types in the virological world from the US being there at the time -- it's unlikely that the story will change. 'Twas a simple species-jump made possible by the close proximity of humans with animals (carcasses) which is common in many parts of the world.

[Sinned]

Academic, really. Without new evidence, as Carl said, the story ain't going to change. Move on, nothing to see here.

[Gusto10]

a just released document:
https://zenodo.org/record/5075888#.YOcVOi1Q3xh

In summary, "... no evidence that SARS-CoV-2 has a laboratory origin". (A proper cut/paste citation was not possible due to source formatting.)

At this point in time, in spite of all other hints -- including the presence of several high-profile types in the virological world from the US being there at the time -- it's unlikely that the story will change. 'Twas a simple species-jump made possible by the close proximity of humans with animals (carcasses) which is common in many parts of the world.

Neither theories are proven yet. Interesting is that the NIH is used both in this article as source as in https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7993900/ but lacks the thoroughness of the last mentioend one.
In this BBC quoted article, the list of authors is interesting in the light of another BBC article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57780023.
As some seem to insist that anything other than what is presented by the governments is incorrect, luckily Q-anon doesn't exist in the old world, I will keep en open mind for all possibilities. I Shan't bother you therewith anymore.

[crfriend]

Oh, screw it. I give up.

Men have never walked on the moon. There was a third gunman on the grassy knoll. And the US 2020 election was fraudulent and Donald trump is still on the throne.

Done!

[SkirtsDad]

...some seem to insist that anything other than what is presented by the governments is incorrect...I will keep en open mind for all possibilities.

What is more or less certain is that governments tend to act in their own best interest and unfortunately it often takes 50 years or more for information to be declassified. I suspect a case in point here will be David Kelly's apparent suicide before the second Gulf war. The government had too much to gain from him not being there, that it is hard to conceive that they had no involvement.

Regarding the source of the Covid outbreak then wouldn't it be in many countries government's interest to point a finger at China's lab, especially if they had any credible evidence? Given that they aren't, then a different source would seem more likely. Even more odd to me is the idea that China would release it at home, so to speak. If they wanted to wreck havoc on the world, surely release it in a different country, no?

Whist I believe it is important to remain sensibly open minded, the issue that I come across with conspiracy theories is that they tend to throw in a couple of credible contentious facts but analysing the rest I usually find little else stands up to scientific scrutiny.

[Coder]

Whist I believe it is important to remain sensibly open minded, the issue that I come across with conspiracy theories is that they tend to throw in a couple of credible contentious facts but analysing the rest I usually find little else stands up to scientific scrutiny.

Yeah, and those are the hardest for me to “fight” against - I get sent a lot of woo from time to time by relatives and have to constantly counter quack articles that include some truth - but inevitably get the science wrong or use truth in a scary way. The ones that grt me the most frustrated are the “chemicals in your food!” Well… yeah… or I love it when they say an ingredient is used in detergent… so is H2O…

[Gusto10]

Whist I believe it is important to remain sensibly open minded, the issue that I come across with conspiracy theories is that they tend to throw in a couple of credible contentious facts but analysing the rest I usually find little else stands up to scientific scrutiny.

Yeah, and those are the hardest for me to “fight” against - I get sent a lot of woo from time to time by relatives and have to constantly counter quack articles that include some truth - but inevitably get the science wrong or use truth in a scary way. The ones that grt me the most frustrated are the “chemicals in your food!” Well… yeah… or I love it when they say an ingredient is used in detergent… so is H2O…

Indeed, scientific scrutiny is essential in order to prevent getting into the field of conspiracy. If two scientific reports contradict each other, such may be pointed out not by just using half a sentence to "prove" ones point. If one invites another to provide scientific evidence of his point of view and you disagree, than providing other/counter evidence to support ones point of view is in place.
In the past I've read many reports on various issues (general liability, product liability, medical malpractice, etc. (I learned a lot)), often enough I had to ask the author to provide clarification, check on internal contradiction, etc. Once I was confronted with a report which was sound on first reading, but my gut feeling said something was wrong. After having read it 10 times or so, I requested the party who had sent it to provide me with the missing page of the report; I never received it, thus I closed the file. Hence, as I tried to indicate before, it's not only about the text, it's also who has written it, if it contradicts another report, it ought to be properly and correctly argumented. If not than it has imho less relevance.
I was invited by Rode Kater and CRF to provide information in order to support my opinion. If one disagrees, as stated before, quoting half a sentence from a report without proper argument, isn't suffice. Do bring forward valid arguments.
I'm not a preacher, I do my utmost to maintain an open and liberal mind with respect for anothers opinion. Due to life experience I've learned not to take anything for granted, that includes the trustworthiness of the government. But that doesn't mean that I believe that Trump is the king, that the earth is flat, that bleach will counter Covid, etc.

[crfriend]

I was invited by Rode Kater and CRF to provide information in order to support my opinion. If one disagrees, as stated before, quoting half a sentence from a report without proper argument, isn't suffice.

And you did. I tool the time to read it, and it was internally wavering and non-commital. The snippet I quoted was from the conclusion of the piece where the authors themselves admitted that there was no credible evidence to support the claim of a lab escape or human genesis of the SARS-CoV-2 virus. I would have quoted more of it, but as the thing was electronically obfuscated to preclude cut/paste operations (itself a highly questionable practise) I had to retype it, thus eliding it somewhat.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This has always been the case.

Oh, and there's no such thing as Climate Change, either.

[Gusto10]

I was invited by Rode Kater and CRF to provide information in order to support my opinion. If one disagrees, as stated before, quoting half a sentence from a report without proper argument, isn't suffice.

And you did. I tool the time to read it, and it was internally wavering and non-commital. The snippet I quoted was from the conclusion of the piece where the authors themselves admitted that there was no credible evidence to support the claim of a lab escape or human genesis of the SARS-CoV-2 virus. I would have quoted more of it, but as the thing was electronically obfuscated to preclude cut/paste operations (itself a highly questionable practise) I had to retype it, thus eliding it somewhat.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This has always been the case.

Oh, and there's no such thing as Climate Change, either.

offcourse.
I thought that is was the task of a moderator to ensure that discussions won't go astray.

[Big and Bashful]

Eeh I just don't know!

What with conspiracy theorists, Flat Earthers, people who believe in the Illuminati, probably carrying out the demands of little green men, (nope, I might want to say political things, but I won't,) people who believe in fairies, Gods, the supernatural, fate, karma, pre-ordination. The world is full of people who will believe any old thing.

I prefer total apathy, I don't care, there is a bug, bugs happen, they are damned inconvenient but they happen. Doesn't matter where it came from, it's here.
People talk about Gods and afterlives of various flavours. Again, I don't give a monkeys, sooner or later I will know, one way or another. I am not a goddist, or an atheist, just completely apathetic.
I believe in beer, I believe in comedy, I believe in sciencey things but can't get my head around string theory. I believe in music and my lack of skill with my collection of guitars and keyboards.
I don't need to believe in my table, I know it is there, belief won't change that, either way.
I also know I hate face masks, but wear them when I have to.
Oh yes, cats are nice, well the nice ones are.

As for the origin of Covid, who cares? it's here now. I don't believe the Chinese conspiracy theories, why? because I have been on the planet and seen expletive deleted muppets try and turn everything into a conspiracy, I have just stopped listening and reading most of the garbage that gets published, I am not interested in people's opinions, just facts. If I can't get hold of facts that not been twisted by someone pushing their opinion, I will go and do something else.

There's one for the record books, a sober rambling diatribe, haven't even had a mug of tea yet, where's me kettle? I believe in kettle.

[crfriend]

[...] I don't care, there is a bug, bugs happen, they are damned inconvenient but they happen. Doesn't matter where it came from, it's here.

I'm largely of the same opinion. We've been blessed with the thing, and we get to deal with it. Let the historians sort it out. As far as the anti-vaxxers [1] go, my main comment tends to be, "Hey, Uncle Chuck [2] is still looking after us."

I'm also largely the same way with climate-change deniers -- and once you challenge them, about half the time they'll agree that they have witnessed things change in their lifetimes. My main argument is that, "Even if humans aren't causing it, we have a decided interest in the outcome, and we're the only species on the planet that may have the power to actually do something about it. However, there's been no traction on that count at all, and I suspect the time for action is long passed. At this point in time, I've been known for advocating a return to burning coal and continuing to build ever larger testosterone trucks (Chelsea tractors) because I don't think we can do anything now and we 'may as well git it out of the way'". Natural laws have no pity, and we've had mass-extinctions before, and they'll happen again after Homo Sapiens are gone from the landscape.

Oh yes, cats are nice, well the nice ones are.

Even the nasty ones have their good moments. I cannot resist the sound or feel of a purring cat.




[1] I still laugh at the half-hour I spent winding up the Observatory Curator at Brown University's Ladd Observatory (a good pal of mine) that I was in the anti-VAX crowd. I stoked the fire and ran the bellows for quite a while with that, and finally let the hammer drop with a crack of, "I never was a fan of that broad-tailed Bronx Shirley that was DEC's VAX." (He's an inveterate DEC 32-bit guy; I play with a full 36-bit DEC.)

[2] Charles Darwin, of course.

[moonshadow]

I believe in beer, I believe in comedy, I believe in sciencey things but can't get my head around string theory. I believe in music and my lack of skill with my collection of guitars and keyboards.
I don't need to believe in my table, I know it is there, belief won't change that, either way.

I believe I'd like to have a beer with Big and Bashful!

[moonshadow]

At this point in time, I've been known for advocating a return to burning coal and continuing to build ever larger testosterone trucks (Chelsea tractors)

Well it's biting them in their billfold now... those things are pushing 70 grand STOCK these days... I guess if you want to be an obnoxious jackass, it's gonna cost ya!

I'm still happy with my little four cylinder 19 year old Kia.

[Gusto10]

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/d ... -data.html

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/resea ... NewsSearch