What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

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crfriend
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by crfriend »

Just because somebody voted for Trump does not necessarily mean that they believe all the dogma. I know a few guys who voted for Trump and who wholeheartedly condemn him for what happened. I also know a couple of others who were overjoyed at what happened in DC earlier in the week. Those are the dangerous ones.

There is reason out there, one just needs to seek it out sometimes. And, as I mention regarding not judging a book by its cover, nor should you immediately condemn someone for who they voted for. Now, more than ever, the need for the adult reaction of the notion of "agree to disagree" -- civilly -- is needed, not blanket condemnation.

I'm for letting the courts sort out what happened in DC, and I'm hoping that more of the media outlets start calling that incident what it was -- an insurrection and a failed coup. Hardcore neo-con and alt-right sources never will, of course, they'll continue peddling the demonstrable fallacy of a corrupt election. However, spewing lies is not usually chargeable in a court of law; this is why it's important to retain one's wits and ability to think rationally.

The on-the-ground foot-soldiers in that fracas need to cool their heels in jail for a few years, and the Supreme Leader who egged them on needs, at the very least, to be heavily censured by the government -- in unison, from all sides -- if not put on formal trial for his misconduct. Sedition is a crime.
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by Freedomforall »

crfriend wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:14 pm
Freedomforall wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:06 pm
Whomever does needs to be shot for disobeying the police.
That sets the extremely dangerous precedent of appointing a cop the powers of judge, jury, and executioner, and that needs to be avoided at all costs. Why? Take a look at the reasons why the Black Lives Matter movement even exists. It should not be legal -- tacitly or explicitly -- for police to sport hunt people.

An arrest for crossing a line? Certainly. A murder? Absolutely not.
Correct. That affectively eliminates the adversarial judicial system we have. That is a very slippery slope on which to begin a descent. There will be no rules of engagement whatsoever for police then.
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by Freedomforall »

This is from my earlier post Carl,

If police are allowed to deviate from them there will be no more accountability and they will in essence become judge and jury. This will effectively eliminate the current adversarial judicial system. Did you know that police were allowed to shoot unarmed felons in Tennessee until a court case called Tennessee vs. Garner?
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by crfriend »

Freedomforall wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:19 pm
This is from my earlier post Carl,
I saw that, and make no bones that I'm in any way familiar with Tennessee law. Carte blanche to shoot someone suspected of being a felon is rather clearly over the top. Mistaken identity happens all the time. And let's face it, if you shoot somebody you're entirely probably doing so with intent to kill.

There's already a big problem of the accountability of police, and that comes out in many ways whether it's the BLM movement, or repeated high-profile scandals involving the Massachusetts State Police who routinely get caught collecting unemployment for time not put it -- and, worse, who have been writing fraudulent traffic tickets to cover their tracks. We've had three rounds like that in the past five years, and what that tells me is that there is precisely no accountability whatsoever. Or, in my case, a complete failure of a local PD to even ascertain whether a crime had been committed and who merely referred me for prosecution, without warrant or evidence -- and there's no accountability to allow me to recover any of the thousands I had to spend in order to prove my innocence.

As one can tell, I have some rather strong views on accountability, and with proper accountability things like BLM would not need to exist. The mere fact that they do is an indictment of how things are run today.
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by Faldaguy »

It seems the conversation about politics in the US this week has shifted to this thread, and I missed it. Thanks Moon, Carl, FFA, Sinned and those of you sharing thoughts here -- most of which all have a ring (elements?) of truth. In addition to your comments, I've received some from family along the same lines, including a niece who expressed being overwhelmed by the implications of the 6th, so I replied not so much in answer to the observations of what took place, but what is appearing to be behind it. I share that message here as I'm inclined to think our problems are deeper than addressing what took place, but what inspired and sustains it.

I know the feelings. Although it has been nearly half a century now, I was engaged on my own, and as part of the larger concerns of the era to the extent that I was at times the direct target of some of the anger and learned first hand how duplicitous and underhanded some of our 'trusted' institutions could be. That is the fear I am feeling presently for the US as it is becoming more evident that this unrest goes far deeper and wider than most of us have thought. It is not just a handful of thugs and discontents, but a well orchestrated campaign of deep-pocketed vested interests. The extensive involvement of police and republican politicians in both the forefront and the organization of this action on Jan 6th speaks to a level of confidence that is indeed worrisome--although most are back-peddling it now as it apparently was not quite as successful as anticipated.

Armed militia groups showing up at various State Capitals in the past couple days despite the rancor and oversight raised by the Jan 6th. invasion says this is not going away soon. Another newly minted Republican representative to the Oregon legislature was caught on tape opening the doors of the OR Capitol when it was in a closed session to another mob of White Supremacists and Proud Boy types--perhaps a 'trail run' for the what appears to have been complicity on the part of some officials at the Capitol on the 6th. The Trump family along with Mark Meadows huddled with monitors in preparation for the 'send off speech' Trump gave was funded by a recent 501c3 arm of the National Republican Attorneys and NRC affiliates -- clearly an extensively planned event.

That several Republican Senators tried to spin the Jan 6th. crowd as Antifa in the face of known evidence to the contrary then, and more so since, speaks to a scary disconnect from reality and a bold willingness to lie and say anything to further their treachery. This truly appears to be an attempt to actively and openly disenfranchise democracy -- something both parties have been de facto guilty of, albeit the GOP has been pretty blatant about it if you follow history and politics at all.

That John Q Public doesn't understand that they are being manipulated, and instead buy into Q-Anon and like conspiracy theories may be our downfall. The lack of critical thinking and the rise of an untethered social media have coalesced into a force that may bring the US to just another land of tribal lords and oligarchs. If ever the powers of prayer to bring some light to bear on evil were needed, now is that time.
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

There has been some discussion as to what, if any, punishments come along with the Senate's conviction of a public official's impeachment. Those punishments are spelled out in the last paragraph of Article 1, Section 3 of the Constitution. So let me quote it and the last sentence of the prior paragraph verbatim:

"And no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two-thirds of the members (of the Senate) present.

"Judgement in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States: but the party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgement, and punishment according to law."

So, once the Senate upholds the House's Impeachment the person being tried is automatically disqualified from any federal office of any kind and can be tried and convicted for whatever charges may apply. To change any of that would require a Constitutional Amendment and no one would dare propose nor vote in favor of such an amendment.

As to the likelihood, two Republican Senators have already gone on record as saying they would support an impeachment of Trump for his seditious acts. Because the Democrats now control the Senate, they get to select the Majority Leader so Moscow Mitch no longer has a stranglehold on the Senate. Furthermore, it is not beyond the pale that the House would impeach Trump and 2/3 of the Senate support that impeachment to impose the Constitutionally-mandated exclusion of Trump from federal office, even if all of this couldn't be done before the 20th of January.

Whichever it takes to get it done, I hope Trump is impeached, complete with Senate conviction so there is no question that sedition will not be tolerated.
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by crfriend »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:27 pm
Whichever it takes to get it done, I hope Trump is impeached, complete with Senate conviction so there is no question that sedition will not be tolerated.
I'd also like to see a conviction of sedition and a ten-year timeout for little Donnie in Ft. Leavenworth. That'd send a powerful messages that sedition and insurrection will not be tolerated.

Then we need to work on the hearts and minds (whatever minds there may be) of His Faithful to make them see the errors of the path He put the country on.

Hopefully ten years would be enough, but no guarantees.

To Moon's comment of the Twitter banning, that should have happened four years ago and should have been handled quietly by the White House staff and little Donnie's handlers. That it wasn't handled put Twitter in an uncomfortable position when it came to outright sedition and incitement to violence, and not only did they move in their own interest, but also in the interests of the greater good. I am not, and never have been, a fan of censorship, but there comes a time when it's necessary -- and it's never been more necessary than now. The alt-right hate and propaganda needs to be stepped on; if rational discourse and debate can't do it, then it may be necessary to invoke other measures much along the same lines as Germany treats its own unfortunate recent history.
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by Sinned »

Theodore Roosevelt said, "Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country." It has been mooted that those Senators still supporting Trump are breaking the oath they take on inauguration. And that includes Trump. By supporting him in his false claims of fraud and especially after his seditious act they are putting the president before the country. It means that those Senators supporting Trump could be impeached or asked to resign. Just thought I'd interject this thought.

Unfortunately as a narcissist with little thought about anything but himself Trump is deemed incapable of putting country before himself which, whilst maybe an allowable trait in business, ultimately disqualifies him from holding any public office.
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by Kirbstone »

....and the current move to bar Trump from seeking public office in future is the right way to go.

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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by r.m.anderson »

And don't forget to slam the door on DT's ass -
Cut off his Pardoning ability immediately and hence forth.
This must be done before his resignation departure -
Impeachment should prohibit it without question.
No final flight on Marine ONE -
a taxi ride to an airport -
a coach ticket to New York awaiting state officials with other agenda - or -
a ticket to Florida to Mar-Lago where his neighbors don't want him !
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

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Well, I'd like to see him being made to walk out of the White House and walk down the street to join his "adoring fans" and see what his reception would be! Then again, maybe not. Scotland doesn't want him either. I see that the PGA has stripped his Bedminster golf course of the 2022 Championship and there are calls for his "cameo" role in Home Alone 2 to be digitally removed. It appears that any association with him is becoming very toxic which may have indirect consequences for his business empire! The Trump name could become a liability. The president formerly known as Trump a la Prince. I have also read that political contributions to those Republican Senators who supported Trump are beginning to dry up.
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by crfriend »

Sinned wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:17 am
Well, I'd like to see him being made to walk out of the White House and walk down the street to join his "adoring fans" and see what his reception would be! Then again, maybe not.
With luck, the fallout from this will be swift and hard. For crying out loud the United States of America just experienced a failed coup borne of violence that left several people dead -- and it was an attempted coup incited by a sitting president!

Five years ago, when it looked like his nomination by the Republicans was pretty much a done deal, one of my friends posited that the Republican Party had "lost control". I dismissed that at the time, but in retrospect knowing what we know now, he may have been spot on. To be honest, it looks like the Democratic Party has lost control as well and looks more like the Republican Party of the 1960s and '70s. That stunt of running Hillary Clinton in 2016 was absolutely idiotic as she was so toxic much of her own party opposed the nomination. And what we got has proved to be an abject disaster. What I think everybody missed in 2015 and 16 was precisely how bad the nominees were and how virulent the Cult of The Leader would become around one of them in particular -- and that Cult persists today. Just because we're supposedly getting a new president in nine days doesn't make the toxic mob go away; we still need to mop that mess up, and it's going to be a tough job.

Both parties need to do a better job with candidates, the Democrats better start behaving like Democrats not laissez-faire Republicans, and the Republicans need to climb back from the fringe right wing.

And if the money starts drying up for those who supported the coup attempt, than what can be said but, "Good."
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by moonshadow »

I've not spoken to anyone locally who voted for Trump in 2020 who doesn't still support him.

Granted, a few don't condone what happened on Jan 6th, but they still stand with him... and there are a sizable number that believe that what happened on Jan 6th was the right thing to do, and they support future attempts at insurrection, believing they are on the right side of history.

No, Trump hasn't crossed the line with his loyal base yet, I'm starting to think there is no line.

That GOP support that's "drying up", no. Very few, and I believe they are close to retirement anyway. The upcoming hopefulls in the party are VERY pro-Trump. Now more than ever.
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:32 pm
With luck, the fallout from this will be swift and hard. For crying out loud the United States of America just experienced a failed coup borne of violence that left several people dead -- and it was an attempted coup incited by a sitting president!
POT (GOP) voters don't care.

He'll be back in '24, and since Biden never was a strong candidate to begin with, the dems will lose the Senate and possibly the house in '22 resulting in a deadlocked congress until '24, while Trump rails on about this or that, then in '24 he, or possibly his son will make a comeback and probably win.

Watch and see.

When he said he could shoot somebody on 5th Avenue and not cost himself a single vote... he wasn't kidding!
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by crfriend »

moonshadow wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:34 pm
He'll be back in '24, and since Biden never was a strong candidate to begin with, the dems will lose the Senate and possibly the house in '22 resulting in a deadlocked congress until '24, while Trump rails on about this or that, then in '24 he, or possibly his son will make a comeback and probably win.
We shall see. It's going to be up to several courts in the coming years, and even if he resigns and Pence pardons him (I can't image why after Pence was literally thrown to the wolves by Trump) that'll be for Federal crimes only, and there are at least a couple of states waiting to have words with him about his business empire.

I don't see him facing Federal charges for sedition and incitement to insurrection simply because he's got enough church members present in congress that are still under control; however, that said, he's going to be in hot water in a couple of states over his finances.
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