What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

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crfriend
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by crfriend »

john62 wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:16 am
I read this forum because I am interested in wearing skirts as a guy and hearing about others who do the same, why can't we just leave American politics OUT.
Unfortunately, the US is a deeply and sharply divided nation because that's in the interests of the controlling class. A nation united is a difficult thing to control effectively. Recall the old adage: "Divide and conquer." Worse, the divisions are so sharp -- religious, really -- that they override things like common decency and respect for one's fellow man. Couple that sharp division with the fact that we're awash in the madness full time because one cannot escape from it and you get a truly toxic brew.
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:33 pm
Worse, the divisions are so sharp -- religious, really -- that they override things like common decency and respect for one's fellow man. Couple that sharp division with the fact that we're awash in the madness full time because one cannot escape from it and you get a truly toxic brew.
That's because the news is no longer about reporting accurate facts anymore and all about keeping eyeballs glued to the set. Americans also LOVE to fight and we also LOVE drama, I think that's why reality shows are so popular, and those other "trailer trash" shows like Jerry Springer and the ones that came after.

Nothing but garbage. There are now three top right wing channels to glue the eyeballs of anyone willing to watch, Fox News, OAN, and Newsmax. Fox does have a conservative bias, but they are the most credible of the three, the other two are nothing more than far right wing propaganda channels.

On the other end, there is MSNBC, and CNN, so I've been told (I've never actually watched either, nor do I know anyone who does- remember I live in a region where 100% of political talk is deeply right wing.) There are a handful of progressives, but they stay mostly underground..
-MS
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by Gusto10 »

moonshadow wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:17 pm
crfriend wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:33 pm
Worse, the divisions are so sharp -- religious, really -- that they override things like common decency and respect for one's fellow man. Couple that sharp division with the fact that we're awash in the madness full time because one cannot escape from it and you get a truly toxic brew.
That's because the news is no longer about reporting accurate facts anymore and all about keeping eyeballs glued to the set. Americans also LOVE to fight and we also LOVE drama, I think that's why reality shows are so popular, and those other "trailer trash" shows like Jerry Springer and the ones that came after.

Nothing but garbage. There are now three top right wing channels to glue the eyeballs of anyone willing to watch, Fox News, OAN, and Newsmax. Fox does have a conservative bias, but they are the most credible of the three, the other two are nothing more than far right wing propaganda channels.

On the other end, there is MSNBC, and CNN, so I've been told (I've never actually watched either, nor do I know anyone who does- remember I live in a region where 100% of political talk is deeply right wing.) There are a handful of progressives, but they stay mostly underground..
Wouldn't it be an idea to check out both CNN and similar sites as wel as Foxnews and other Murdock newssites as the NYT?
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by Sinned »

Well, the impeachment trial is set. From what I have read it's touch and go as to whether he will be convicted and I have a dreadful feeling that he will get off the hook again. Whether Trump is convicted or not is immaterial to me but what I want to ask is: If he is not convicted then what does a president have to do to get convicted? Actually get some Representatives/Senators murdered? Remember that but for one individual's resourcefulness that very well could have happened. I don't think that some Senators aren't thinking - just toeing the party line like sheeples. This is their chance to expunge him from their party and if they don't disqualify him from holding public office then he will stick the knife in and really twist it. Maybe he will be an agitator anyway, who can tell? Carpe Diem.
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by PatJ »

I have had to do my civic duty and sit as a jurist.

One of the very first things that the court wanted to know was:
"Do any of you know the defendant, prosecutor, or key witnesses?"
"Do you have any preconceived beliefs as to the guilt or not of the
defendant?"

It seems to me that about 99% of the Senate has their minds made
up as to the guilt or not guilty status of Donald J Trump before the
trial has even begun! In addition, with all the reporting that has
occurred in the media, I seriously doubt if there is an impartial
person left on this planet to be able to sit as a non-opinionated
jurist.

I do not see the upcoming trial as anything but a waste of taxpayer
money.

It is time to move on and work to build a future, not dwell in the
past picking scabs of old wounds.
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by Uncle Al »

All of this "Impeachment" talk us mute anyway.
You can't impeach a private citizen. You can
only impeach a sitting official in a government
office, to have him/her removed from that office.

Past-President Trump is now a private citizen.
He can't be impeached.

End of story :!:

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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by crfriend »

It's going to be rather interesting for those of us in the US who watched the whole sordid deal unfold over a half-decade. The rest of the world should be watching also to see how the chips fall in what was once a country looked up to by much of the rest of the world.

There are several important things in play, all of which are being twisted and obfuscated to suit those who are presenting their arguments. However, let's start with the most basic of facts: Donald J. Trump was formally impeached by the US House of Representatives in accordance with the Constitution of The United States whilst he was still in power. Following the impeachment, the role of the Senate of the United States is to adjudicate whether the accused is guilty of the charge brought by the House of Representatives. The outcome of the adjudication (the "trial") is whether he is guilty of the charges levied by the House and will be stripped of office. It has no bearing on criminal culpability whatsoever; that is up to the judiciary to decide in formal criminal trials. All a "conviction" by the Senate does is to remove the office-holder from office; it also sets up a second vote by "the jury" whether it is worthwhile barring the former (by virtue of "conviction") from holding office in the future. The second cannot happen without the first.

Here's where it gets sticky. The argument is not about the impeachment: that was entirely and clearly legal; the argument is whether the trial can legally commence. I've read a certain amount of law in my time, but once charges are filed they are committed to be tried -- and this would apply to an impeached official who is now out of power by simple virtue of time. Exempting the charged from trial by virtue of time elapsed -- and there is no statute of limitation on impeachment (which is time-bound by time in office) creates a very dangerous void where "bad behaviour" [1] could be shunted aside and ignored by legal means. In essence, is opens a window for future miscreants to pull the same stunt following future elections and not be held accountable -- and that's not a position the nation should be in.

The Senate, thanks to the power of the CoT has already telegraphed its intent -- and it's a very. very dangerous one. If the nation cannot hold an office-holder (ex- or not by time) accountable for criminal action, then we have a deeply fundamental flaw in our legal thinking.

The outcome of the trial is likely a foregone conclusion: "Not Guilty." What happens in 2024? What happens the next time the Capitol gets sacked? Who gets the blame next time? Because without a conviction and a strong statement it will happen again. If this trial fails, it will be guaranteed to set up a very, very nasty showdown if not in 2024, then in 2028. The nation needs to hold criminal action to account, because if it doesn't it going to set an extraordinarily bad precedent which may well bring the nation down.


[1] Ample evidence exists to convict on the "Incitement to Insurrection" charge. Outright treason would have been a probable one a half-century ago, but modern times are not the more reasonable ones of then. Mobs are dangerous things; one does not rile a mob up without intent to cause death and destruction -- both of which happened in "the Peoples' House" on 2021-01-06.
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by moonshadow »

The senate will acquit. It's practically a done deal.

Yes Carl, high ranking people never answer for their crimes.

When it comes to big money and politics it's "just us"

And when the regular citizen breaks a law, we get "justice".

Maybe Trump will try to pass a fake $20 and get taken down...

Oh silly me... wrong skin color, wrong income bracket... :roll:

I tend to side with PatJ at this point... this is a waste of time.

Just let the man do whatever the hell he wants.
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by moonshadow »

I hope he does come back in '24 and win. I want to see this whole damn circus go up in flames! :twisted:

This nation is like an old beat up car... sitting in a field, running on three cylinders... so.... pour water in the oil filler, drain the antifreeze, prop a brick against the accelerator and let's red line this son of a b!tch until she finally throws a rod...
-MS
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by crfriend »

moonshadow wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:34 am
This nation is like an old beat up car... sitting in a field, running on three cylinders... so.... pour water in the oil filler, drain the antifreeze, prop a brick against the accelerator and let's red line this son of a b!tch until she finally throws a rod...
I can't support that, either ethically or from a moderator's perspective.

It's too important, and we cannot forget that. If the US descends into anarchy -- which it may well yet do, and is on a course to -- the worldwide fallout will be truly catastrophic.

My personal hope is that bridges can be rebuilt and the the wounds inflicted upon us by the media can be cooled with salve. Only with unity of purpose can the US do anything meaningful now -- and that's unity of purpose of the people, not merely the super-rich. If we can't achieve that then all else is for naught.
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:50 am
I can't support that, either ethically or from a moderator's perspective.
I don't support it either, but it just seems like we're bound and determined to trash the place.

I don't know what else to do. Peoples minds are like hardened steel at this point. You've seen the chatter, both here and out in the world. The only thing that changed was the trenches just got a lot deeper.

The events and aftermath of the 2020 election process, right up to Jan 6th 2021 has done nothing but just make things a thousand times worse.

Even here, a site of reasonably thoughtful and intelligent people, how many minds were changed?

One. Just one, Brad. It stands to reason this percentage should hold abroad. Aside from Brad, I have yet to speak with a single Republican who doesn't whole heartedly support Mr. Trump in everything he has done, and I'm surrounded by them, my sampling pool is very large. Oh sure, there were a few days of silence, but as pelmut suggested, they came back in about a week, defensive as ever and rationalizing the whole ordeal in favor of Trump.

And like I indicated to AL after his post earlier, "if there are people who still find Trump an all around "good guy" after everything that has happened, I don't know what else to say".

So let the damned thing burn.

It's like I told a guy last summer who sarcastically remarked about a bronze statue of a little girl playing a mandolin in Bristol VA...

"Welp, won't be long they'll be tearing those statues down too!"

I replied,
"I don't care... tear it all down if it suits them..."

"Well some day they're going to destroy something you believe in"

"They already destroyed everything believe in."

Do not worry. I won't engage in conspiracy to commit treason or sedition here or elsewhere, but when it all hits the fan, and the nation erupts in flames, I will turn my back and walk away. I won't put my life on the line for either side, they're not worth it. These people aren't worth it. Just a bunch of sleazy monsters... all of them.

I weep for what we've lost (I really do). I dread the fact that in the next decade there is an increasing likelihood that we will be the refugees. Why? I don't know.

It's okay Carl. The Earth and the Universe will survive, we may not, but such is the cycle of life I suppose. Nothing last forever.
-MS
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:34 am
and that's unity of purpose of the people
What people?

The people of this nation are not comrades buddy... we're 330 million people each with a knife to the throat of the person next to us... total dog eat dog.
-MS
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by partlyscot »

Uncle Al wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:56 pm
All of this "Impeachment" talk us mute anyway.
You can't impeach a private citizen. You can
only impeach a sitting official in a government
office, to have him/her removed from that office.

Past-President Trump is now a private citizen.
He can't be impeached.

End of story :!:

Uncle Al
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Incorrect.
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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by Uncle Al »

Sorry partlyscot but this IS true.

Impeachment ONLY APPLIES to people who occupy any Federal/State/Local governmental office.
The Constitution gives Congress the authority to impeach and remove "The President, Vice President, and all civil officers of the United States" upon a determination that such officers have engaged in treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.
A private citizen may not be impeached FOR ANY REASON. They hold no governmental offices.

I don't care whether you like or dislike Donald Trump.
Under the constitution, as a private citizen(out of office), he can't be impeached
and removed from office.

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Re: What a Stalin Quote About Rigging Elections Reveals About the 2020 Election

Post by Jim »

Uncle Al wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:52 am
Impeachment ONLY APPLIES to people who occupy any Federal/State/Local governmental office.
Yes. Donald Trump was impeached by the House of Representatives, which has the sole power of impeachment, while he was in office. The trial by the Senate is not moot because of the penalty to bar future holding of office.
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