A Sincere Request of Help from Those Who Disagree with My Politics

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Pdxfashionpioneer
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Re: A Sincere Request of Help from Those Who Disagree with My Politics

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Carl,

I agree with your longer list of problems, I was just responding to the order of priority that Moonshadow listed those few items.
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.
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Re: A Sincere Request of Help from Those Who Disagree with My Politics

Post by moonshadow »

Faldaguy wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:36 am
Moon, I feel you've been suckered by the ever repeated refrain of Restaurant corps that rant about paying their help minimum wage, and still want to deduct their tips.
National chains generally don't talk that kind of business with lowly service techs like myself. No... it's the locally owned places. Including one who flat out broke down crying in front of me over the dire state of matters... could have been crocodile tears though.... *shrugs*
Faldaguy wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:36 am
Many places are already at $12.00 or more, some at $15.00 already.
If so many places are already paying it, then what's the point of the increase?
Faldaguy wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:36 am
And, you reference and imply "Welfare Cheats". Oh, horrors a handful (percentage wise) of folks do manage to garner benefits to which they are not strictly legally entitled. I'd suggest we worry more about the Corporate cheats and the political dodges that take vastly more sums than the whole of the welfare cheats. If you want to find a class of welfare cheats that truly rob us blind -- start with military contractors, politicians, and off-shore registered entities
Yes... go after them all! But let's not assume the welfare class is all virtuous... they're not...
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:51 am
And even if the $15 minimum wage were to be instituted tomorrow, it still wouldn't be the highest minimum wage in relation to the current cost of living. To reach that level the minimum wage would need to get to $20 per hour.
What? Not here! Not according to inflation calculators.

About the only thing that had skyrocketed in my adult lifetime is the cost of cable TV and cell phone plans. I'll grant electric has doubled in the last 20 years (from around 6 cents per kwh to 11.5 currently) but at the same time, many homes have become more efficient. My own power bill from 2000 I remember running around $50 on average, it's now around $95.

Rent has went up the least, dad rented a trailer in the early 90s for $275. My neighbor is currently renting his for $400.

Hey I've got an idea... let's just make it a thousand dollars per hour! That'll pull EVERYONE out of poverty since raising wages doesn't increase the cost of anything.

It also solves the issue of the toilet paper shortage, we can just start using greenbacks instead, since that's about all it will be good for. :roll:

Whatever guys... lotsa-luck to ya... you're gonna lose the Whitehouse and we still won't have any damned healthcare... but I suppose that was the plan all along...
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Re: A Sincere Request of Help from Those Who Disagree with My Politics

Post by moonshadow »

So to close this, I guess we'll find out in due time.

Now recall how this thread started, Dave, you wanted to hear what was on the minds of Trump supporters and moderates. I, and many others delivered. From my observation, the remainder of the thread was those on the left simply doubling down on the leftist agenda. Now I'm not saying I stand opposed to everything on the lefts agenda... racial justice LGBT rights, TRUE religious freedom, Universal Healthcare... I'm right there with you. There are some matters I lean right on however, abortion, minimum wage, doling out government freebies, and drug testing for freebies.

So here we are... the lines drawn clear as they ever were. Note that democrats hold the Senate by a hairs margin, and they actually lost seats in the house. Also consider the only reason Biden was chosen was due to his reputation of being a more moderate Democrat... mainly, nobody on the extreme left could beat Trump, even considering his dismal handling of 2020 in general.

Think about it.

The best way to eat an elephant... is one bite at a time (pardon the pun)... I think you're putting the cart before the horse with matters like a $15 fed minimum wage. I fear it's going to cost you in '22 and possibly in '24.... let's just see what Virginia allows in the governor's race coming up... the GOP is looking pretty strong right now...

I swear... independents... we're becoming more and more endangered every day... :(
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Re: A Sincere Request of Help from Those Who Disagree with My Politics

Post by crfriend »

moonshadow wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:00 pm
Hey I've got an idea... let's just make it a thousand dollars per hour! That'll pull EVERYONE out of poverty since raising wages doesn't increase the cost of anything.
The notion of a universal base income has been tried in some advanced countries, and it's been found to work fairly well. The base is set so it's somewhat above the poverty line, but enough that one can afford basic housing and food staples. Since most people prefer to work instead of being idle, most still do, and work for pretty good wages. Health care is, needless to say, taken care of so that's not an ongoing existential crisis. Denmark comes to mind in this regard, the government essentially pegged the desired state as being a middle-class population, and that's what it tends to be with support at the bottom and pretty hefty taxes at the top -- and most folks there don't mind paying tax for the simple reason that they receive something in return for it, which is quite unlike the United States where the working class gets socked and receives essentially nothing for it save jury-duty summonses and tax bills. The rich, on the other hand, pay practically nothing in tax but reap the benefit of corporate welfare paid for by the working class.
Whatever guys... lotsa-luck to ya... you're gonna lose the Whitehouse and we still won't have any damned healthcare... but I suppose that was the plan all along...
Recall that until we solve the problem of the rampant corruption in the system -- eat the elephant, as you might say -- no matter who "wins", the general population will lose. It matters not what the party affiliation is; loyalty is to where the money is. If the rich really want to block the $15/hour plan then one or two "Democrats" will vote against it and it'll die.
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Re: A Sincere Request of Help from Those Who Disagree with My Politics

Post by pelmut »

moonshadow wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:11 pm
[...]
I swear... independents... we're becoming more and more endangered every day... :(
You could try starting an Extreme Moderates party...

What do we want? Moderation!
When do we want it? Uhm in due course, whenever it suits you!
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Re: A Sincere Request of Help from Those Who Disagree with My Politics

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:35 pm
The notion of a universal base income has been tried in some advanced countries, and it's been found to work fairly well.
Now UBI is another matter all together. When I first heard of it, I scoffed, but after listening to "Knowing Better's" YouTube video on welfare, I admit he got me thinking. Of course he packaged it in a way that UBI would replace ALL welfare programs. Thus, under this hypothetical, housing assistance, food stamps, etc would be replaced, and of course the minimum wage would actually be abolished.

Here's the link... https://youtu.be/s4EuaMxL--s check it out when you have the time.
pelmut wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:37 pm
You could try starting an Extreme Moderates party...

What do we want? Moderation!
When do we want it? Uhm in due course, whenever it suits you!
Ha! I love it! :lol:
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Re: A Sincere Request of Help from Those Who Disagree with My Politics

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:35 pm
It matters not what the party affiliation is; loyalty is to where the money is. If the rich really want to block the $15/hour plan then one or two "Democrats" will vote against it and it'll die.
Now think about what you're saying... who really wins when minimum wage is increased across the board?

A: the 1%. Those who own the commodities and primary means of production. They are at the top of the food chain... Walmart, General Electric, Amazon, ExxonMobil, etc.. they can just raise prices accordingly... it's the little guys...the Mom and Pops that will struggle... and of course those in the middle class... we just pay for it through inflation.

Notice we're not talking about capping the price these tycoons can charge for their commodities and services. The oligarchs you speak of don't want both sides of the economy under communal (socialist) control... they'll allow the cost of labor to hike up... provided they can still name their price on commodities. That's just business... when cost go up... you raise prices.

They HAVE to raise minimum wage, because all of the blue states are inching towards $15 per hour... that means if the long arm of the fed doesn't reign in the red states... then where do you think all the jobs will move to? And we can't have Tennessee out performing California on unemployment numbers.... this is dirty politics... this isn't capitalism, this isn't even socialism.... it's just dirty politics... Look at the exodus happening in California today, everyone is leaving and moving to red states like Texas and Tennessee... why? Because the cost of living and regulation in California is simply out of control...

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Seattle not having any issue with their high wage... of course 99% of the U.S. economy operated on lower amount.

Why can you get a cell phone for under $1,000? Slave wages in communist China. The U.S. simply can not produce something like that for under $10k... just look at what a p.o.s. American car cost these days... Damned near $40k for a halfway decent car.
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Re: A Sincere Request of Help from Those Who Disagree with My Politics

Post by Sinned »

I have read this thread with great interest. I have noticed that there is a great difference in the way that your legislation is formed compared to ours. Over here a bill is submitted. It has a single purpose - to exit the EU or to enact Equality legislation. In the US a bill is submitted and extra things can be tacked on ( sometimes at the very last minute ) that have nothing to do with the original bill. Am I correct? Thus the $15 minimum wage is tacked on to the Corona Vaccine bill. Over here they would require 2 separate bills. Also our bills have 3 readings in each House ( Commons and Lords ) where the contents are debated and amended or passed after each reading. Not saying that either system is the best, just different. If I've read the situation wrong then I apologise.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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Re: A Sincere Request of Help from Those Who Disagree with My Politics

Post by crfriend »

moonshadow wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:23 pm
Now think about what you're saying... who really wins when minimum wage is increased across the board?

A: the 1%. Those who own the commodities and primary means of production.
It is axiomatic that the fat-cat always wins in the USA, but there are knock-on effects from building from below. For one, it puts discretionary income into the hands of a lot of people -- not a whole lot per, but in aggregate a lot -- and that gets spread around quite liberally when compared to what happens when it goes to the top. Little people tend to spend the money they make; fat-cats hoard it and gamble with it which removes it from circulation.

So, yes, the mom-and-pop places will have to pay their workers somewhat more, but they'll also have other folks' workers coming in and buying things that they otherwise couldn't. This is one of the very few places where it's not a zero-sum game.

Eventually it'll end up at the top -- mom and pop places have to get their stock from somewhere, and that'll be from the majors; but for a little while the extra cash will circulate around in the little economy before getting siphoned off into stock-portfolios and offshore accounts.
They HAVE to raise minimum wage, because all of the blue states are inching towards $15 per hour... that means if the long arm of the fed doesn't reign in the red states... then where do you think all the jobs will move to?
If you look at it, most states are purple -- a mix of "red" and "blue" -- so that argument doesn't really hold water. There's also the notion that the two parties are now largely equivalent because of where the loyalties lie. That's the reason I don't harp about the parties: I call the entire system out because it's the system that's corrupt in addition the individual parties.

On "unemployment numbers": those are a fiction and have been for decades -- especially if one counts under-employment which is where someone with lots of skills and things to offer has to work two or three McJobs so they can keep the lights on. The problem is is that the McJob counts as "employment" when all it is is a desperate act undertaken by desperate people in desperate times in a society with no meaningful safety-net. Working in the field you'll possibly have noticed that there's no more "rush hour" any more -- it's busy and congested all the time: that's the result of folks "commuting" from one McJob to another because there are few real jobs left.
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Re: A Sincere Request of Help from Those Who Disagree with My Politics

Post by rode_kater »

Sinned wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:05 pm
I have read this thread with great interest. I have noticed that there is a great difference in the way that your legislation is formed compared to ours. Over here a bill is submitted. It has a single purpose - to exit the EU or to enact Equality legislation. In the US a bill is submitted and extra things can be tacked on ( sometimes at the very last minute ) that have nothing to do with the original bill.
It's an interesting phenomenon, but as I understand it fairly old. When drafting the Australian Constitution there were explicit clauses added to deal with it. I believe the phrase "pork barrelling" is also related.
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Re: A Sincere Request of Help from Those Who Disagree with My Politics

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Hello Dennis,

You're right about the folks on Capital Hill being able to add unrelated items to bills. As I remember my high school "Problems in Democracy" class, only one of the two houses has rules allowing it to tack on unrelated amendments. That was awhile ago, to say the least, so, who knows maybe the other house has changed its rules so they too can get in on the fun.

Hello Rode,

You're right that the ability to add unrelated items to a bill is a tool for dipping into the "pork barrel" so a Congressman or Senator "bring home the bacon" for his/her district. But at least as powerful in that regards were "earmarks," provisions in say the session's transportation bill specifying that $X millions will be spent repaving or widening a specific stretch of interstate highway because it's in that solon's district.

Sound corrupt? Sometimes, but that practice also kept our infrastructure in much better condition than it is today and it created opportunities to get things done. When Pres. Lyndon Johnson was pressing for his Civil Rights acts i can guarantee he promised to support all kinds of earmarks.

Even though the House and Senate banned earmarks shortly after Pres. Obama was elected because Sarah Palin raised a stink about them, considering how many earmarks went to Alaska her stance went far beyond hypocritical, they're still alive and well. They're just harder to find. Quite some time ago Common Cause demonstrated that nearly single one of our pieces of major military hardware has vendors, suppliers or subcontractors in every single Congressional district. Every single one. Why? not because that's the most economical system of procurement, not even close; as should be a surprise to no one, it's purely for the politics. Such purchasing practices creates a built-in constituency for first adopting the system and secondly keeping it in the Pentagon's inventory, whether or not the system makes any military sense.

So when you look at the mechanics of how the US government works, you really have to ask yourself how we Yanks managed to make our American Experiment the world's longest lasting democracy.
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

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Re: A Sincere Request of Help from Those Who Disagree with My Politics

Post by PatJ »

"On "unemployment numbers": those are a fiction and have been for decades..."

Truer words were never written.

People who are unemployed and cannot find employment for so long that they
simply quit looking are dropped from the unemployed list. If they quit looking
for a job, they must not want one. This tends to under report the true number
of unemployed.
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