Gaslighting

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Dust
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Re: Gaslighting

Post by Dust »

rode_kater wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:01 pm
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:13 pm
The Preamble of the US Constitution does NOT say the following is the blueprint of "a perfect" anything; it says they were trying to establish "a more perfect union" through the following document. They doubled down on that recognition of their limitations by including two distinct mechanisms for amending their creation; the process that's become the standard mechanism and by a Constitutional Convention called by the states. Considering how well our Constitution has served us and for how long, I still say the original Constitutional Convention did a darned good job.
I believe the US constitution suffers badly from "first-mover disadvantage". For its time it was very innovative, though not without its flaws. Countries that later adopted constitutions copied the good bits and changed the bad bits. To actually update the US constitution with all the subsequent innovations is basically undoable.

Examples of nice improvements (coincidently from the countries I'm most familiar with):
  • Territories get representation in the Senate, as well as states (Australia)
  • Bills regarding appropriations/taxes/duties may only be about that and not anything else (to avoid tacking unrelated crap onto budget bills). (Australia)
  • No electoral college (basically everywhere)
  • Protecting freedom of expression (thus also clothing) in addition to freedom of speech (ECHR, NL)
  • Explicitly protecting privacy (NL)
  • Some form of PR and abolishing the district system (NL)
I used to see people proclaiming that the US had the best constitution ever and everything else was just a weak copy. I don't hear that so much these days any more.
No, the Senate needs to go back to representing (and being appointed by) the state governments, not being voted on.

Bills do need to stop getting filled with unrelated crap. Not sure how to fix that, but it's a real problem.

The Electoral College needs to stay. It is the only thing keeping a tyranny of the majority at bay. Without it, the nation as we know it would collapse.

The US actually, in some ways, has more privacy protections than most countries. Health information here is more protected than anywhere else that I'm aware of, thanks to HIPA.

I'm assuming by PR you are referring to some sort of parlimentary representation. That's an idea that has some merit, gets third parties involved and such. But it also leads to an instability and chaos that I'm not sure we want. Plus, with as large a country as the US is, having representation of your locality is a good thing.
Dust
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Re: Gaslighting

Post by Dust »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:00 pm
Biden needs to steer the US Military gorilla skillfully.


True that!

And Congress needs to reassert its sole authority to declare war.
Funny, Trump's the first president in a long time to NOT start any new wars...

But yes, I'll agree that needs to go back to Congress.
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Re: Gaslighting

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Ray wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:50 am
I note also the fear and loathing of communism. Fair enough - it doesn’t really work - but what saddens me is the resulting fear of socialism. That’s paranoia. Socialism - or large chunks of it - works well in economies. Most European countries have socialist elements in their economies. They are doing fine, thanks - and the poor and less well-off are not cast aside like in the US. Get free healthcare. It’s based on socialism. It’s what civilised nations should have.
Sure, I like the sound of free healthcare. But not from the government. That is not the government's job. It becomes a power grab, and deprives people of opportunities to actually help one another. As in charity. Person to person, voluntary, loving, generous action. It's what civilized people should do.

The government cannot love, and it cannot be generous. All governments can do in this regard is mis-manage, spend other people's money, deprive people of freedom, and create long lines, rationing, etc. No thanks.
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Re: Gaslighting

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crfriend wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:29 pm

I call "right-wing propaganda". Read it, but engage your analytical mind before doing so.

The takeaway from this should be, "Always keep an open mind, but be skeptical and be aware of who wrote something, and why it was written."
Unfortunately, anyone who argues points like "think for yourself" or "gather information from a variety of sources, then draw your own conclusions" is now accused of "right-wing propaganda."

The mainstream media and big tech have been burying stories, heavily supporting one point of view while suppressing all others, and generally acting as one giant propaganda outlet. They literally have been calling any info from elsewhere a "conspiracy theory," which essentially means "insane ramblings." This really is gaslighting.

"Right-wing" sources have, for better or worse, become the primary alternative media. Bring back balanced journalism, and the country might heal. Till then, this polarized crap will continue.
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Re: Gaslighting

Post by Ray »

Dust,

There’s nothing that says a government or state cannot provide free healthcare. Better that than a large profit oriented corporate doing so. Your talk of rationing and queues suggests you have been watching some dystopian film of the ravages of war or communism. Have you travelled much (globally)? It’s enlightening.

You use emotional words in your language. There’s no need. Sure, governments can be anything but loving - but institutions, once set up, frequently prevail. So it is with our National Health Service. It’s not perfect - but it’s there for everyone, irrespective of their wealth. Rich, poor - all are treated.

That’s civilisation. That’s a social ideal (interesting, isn’t it? You remove the -ism from the end of the word, and it’s perceived meaning changes hugely) which has a huge part to play in an otherwise capitalist country.

No need to embrace socialism - but shake its hand. You might learn something.
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Re: Gaslighting

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Gaslighting

There's a saying, "truth shall stand when the world's on fire".

In other words, all of the bullsh!t aside:

America failed miserably with regards to the covid situation, but only PART of it is a result of our profit driven medial system, another part is lack of any real safety net for the working class. But the BIGGEST PART, is American culture.

I once heard the Arabians say Americans are "money crazy", I'm inclined to see their point. The American culture is dog eat dog, extraordinarily profit driven, and ONLY charitable when the one giving the charity gets a tax write off, or some other "social atta-boy".

This is not the fault of any politician. After all, we the people, put these politicians in power. It's not Trumps fault, he's just one man, and in point of fact, the reason Trump is so popular is because he is the perfect American. He is pretty much a walking, talking vessel of pure "American culture". Biden can't fix this, congress can't fix this, nobody can. This is just the way Americans are hardwired. Greed and envy is in our blood.

My ranting aside, this [culture] will never change, because this is who we are. With America, what you see is what you get.

It is what it is....
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crfriend
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Re: Gaslighting

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moonshadow wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:54 am
My ranting aside, this [culture] will never change, because this is who we are. With America, what you see is what you get.
Actually, that's not entirely true. It can change, and has been changing for the past 40 years.

Lots of people aren't old enough to remember, but in the 1970s, things were a lot more laid-back than they are now; by the time '75 rolled around, the nightmare of Viet Nam was largely behind us, we'd finished off a successful campaign to land men on the moon and return them safely to the Earth, and things were generally looking up. Then came the 1980s and the rise of the reactionary (aka the "neo con" (for "neo-conservative", in the same vein as "neo-nazi"), the dual ascendancy of Ronald Reagan in the US and Margaret Thatcher in the UK, and a global lurch to the right which was especially bad in the US, slightly less in the UK, and less still in the rest of the developed world. It's been drifting steadily rightwards ever since, and we see what that's gotten us in the form of hard-right nationalism, intolerance, governance by fear and intimidation, and sometimes outright violence.

It is, partly, the fault of the American populace, but they were led along very skillfully by folks adept at controlling minds, and all the while those folks were getting dumbed down by continual assaults on public education and a declining tendency to accept intellectual activity. Language, too, has morphed to suit this new order. For instance, the terms "liberal" and "conservative" are now both slurs, and calling someone an "intellectual" is likely to get one's nose busted by an incoming punch. I recall a time when being intellectual was a lauded thing and not reviled. A time when science and engineering was looked up to, not dismissed.

If that subtle changing of the landscape isn't "gaslighting", I have no idea what, then, qualifies for it.

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Re: Gaslighting

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Carl, I really think you'd enjoy the book "We the People are the problem", written by Peter Magistrale. A New York Democrat, though he writes like a Republican... a TRUE Republican (not that CRAP that passes for a "Republican" today...).

The Trump people among us here at the Cafe would likely enjoy the book, as to my surprise it's not a book dogging on Trump or his followers, rather it pretty much holds all of us accountable, and he's pretty critical of his own party.

There are a few things I'd debate him on, his criticism of public schools seems a little far fetched, and he has a few other strange ideas about things, but the meat of the book is pretty spot on IMO.
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Re: Gaslighting

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Carl,

I'm not as old as you for sure. I don't remember Reagan. But what I do remember is a steady leftward trend that accelerated hard under Obama. Trump slammed the breaks on that, and started steering the other way. He hasn't gotten far yet.

I don't see what you are talking about with "intellectual" getting anyone punched. Sure, some look down on college and academia, but that is really only the programs with "studies" in the name, not the hard sciences or engineering.

Public education has suffered for sure, but pinning the blame on that with conservatives seems far fetched. They seem more aware of the problem than their liberal counterparts. You may not like their solutions (school choice, etc.), but I don't see any desire to make real positive changes from the left.
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Re: Gaslighting

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Ray,

I've been overseas a little bit. I've also watched folks come to America for medical treatment because their country's socialist medical system failed them. I've also seen what socialized medicine we do have here fail friends and family.

Tricare (US military healthcare) left a friend of mine waiting a week for a surgery to repair his shattered arm. He stayed at home feeling the bones grind past each other, waiting for the military to approve his surgery. It was deemed "non-emergency" because the bone fragments didn't break the skin.

My wife is eligible for VA medical treatment, but doesn't use it. Why? It takes too long to get anything done, and better care can be had through my insurance, which frankly isn't that great. Sometimes we pay out of pocket rather than deal with the VA.

Your lauded NHS makes the news over here sometimes. I remember reading about a kid who was dying. His parents wanted to try things the NHS would not approve. They arranged to fly him to a US hospital, but the NHS would not let them, even though they had secured all the funds to pay for it. Nevermind rationing, they were going to make sure he died in an NHS hospital, despite foreigners willing to take him in and try to save him.

The local hospital near us isn't one you would have ever heard of. Yet they get "VIP patients" flown in from halfway around the world for better care.

In the US, if there is a case of someone in a bad spot, when people hear about it donations flood in to help them. It could be medical issues, a house fire, or something else. No tax deductions for that kind of giving.

There's a hospital in the US set up to take kids with cancer at no cost, and get them cutting edge care, completely privately funded. Does charity like that exist over there?
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Re: Gaslighting

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Dust wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:08 pm
I'm not as old as you for sure. I don't remember Reagan. But what I do remember is a steady leftward trend that accelerated hard under Obama. Trump slammed the breaks on that, and started steering the other way. He hasn't gotten far yet.
I'm not sure where you hail from, but I'm in the Northeast, long looked upon as a bastion of liberalism and I haven't noticed any motion in that direction for decades -- it's all been to the right. It's also been going on long enough that you don't have any memories of what it was like "before". As far as under Obama was concerned, don't confuse rhetoric with policy. Sure, there was much grand rhetoric, but when it came to policy The Obama administration amounted to the second eight years of Cheney/Dubya.
I don't see what you are talking about with "intellectual" getting anyone punched. Sure, some look down on college and academia, but that is really only the programs with "studies" in the name, not the hard sciences or engineering.
Again, there may be location-specific and generation-specific things in play, but having intellectual capacity is not particularly cherished around here no matter what the current rhetoric is. One of the highest compliments you used to be able to pay someone was, "You're a gentleman and a scholar."; nowadays, that puts one on thin ice if conversing with someone under 45.
Public education has suffered for sure, but pinning the blame on that with conservatives seems far fetched. They seem more aware of the problem than their liberal counterparts. You may not like their solutions (school choice, etc.), but I don't see any desire to make real positive changes from the left.
The assault on public education was carried out by "both" "sides", proving that there really is only one "side". I'd originally pegged it as a Teleban move, but when both "parties" climbed aboard started to smell a rat, and even though I still get a whiff of Taleban in the mix, have concluded that it benefits the oligarchs who have been playing the Taleban like a third-rate fiddle. I'm looking forward to the fireworks when that alliance comes apart, but sadly the damage has been done and will take generations to undo.


"What's the difference between our Teleban and their Taleban?" Ours wear ties.
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Re: Gaslighting

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Dust wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:08 pm
I'm not as old as you for sure. I don't remember Reagan. But what I do remember is a steady leftward trend that accelerated hard under Obama. Trump slammed the breaks on that, and started steering the other way. He hasn't gotten far yet.
Obama was not liberal. He was "republican-lite", just like Biden will be. Obama's crowing "achievement" was likely the ACA, but all that really was was a mandate to purchase private insurance, and for those insurance companies to cover everyone. It was not "socialism", if anything it was crony capitalism on the highest order.

I went on the market place out of curiosity. If I needed it today, I'd be looking at around $600 per month for an insurance plan with a
...

Wait for it....

$10,000 (yes one with four zeros afterwards) deductible!

Some "insurance" that is...

Obama was just another shyster, just like all the ones before and the ones after and that will come after...
Dust wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:43 pm
In the US, if there is a case of someone in a bad spot, when people hear about it donations flood in to help them. It could be medical issues, a house fire, or something else. No tax deductions for that kind of giving.
Only if you have friends or are somehow socially connected. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people in the U.S. today living in dire situations, many are helplessly homeless, living in tent cities, in their cars, etc. I myself had a close brush with homelessness back in 2017. Nobody helped us... lots of "thoughts and prayers" though. At the end of the day, the only thing that saved our hide was a hefty personal loan from the bank.

But if my credit was less than stellar (as it is with most people) then down the drain we would have went!
Dust wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:43 pm
Tricare (US military healthcare) left a friend of mine waiting a week for a surgery to repair his shattered arm. He stayed at home feeling the bones grind past each other, waiting for the military to approve his surgery. It was deemed "non-emergency" because the bone fragments didn't break the skin.
Why didn't he just go to a private hospital? If lack of insurance was the reason, I can tell you from expirence how much a one night's stay will run for the uninsured, $30,000, plus other associated cost (the surgeon, anesthesia, recovery, etc)

BUT he may have qualified for a "medicaid spin down", (we did back when it happened) of course if you make much more than $10 per hour... then... guess he might want to bring his checkbook....

Of course, and I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but why didn't charity take care of him? I mean... serious question here...
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Re: Gaslighting

Post by Ray »

Dust

You are right in that medical care at the absolute top level in the USA is better and more comprehensive than that in the UK.

But not providing an overarching system of medical support to all without direct cost is just uncivilised. It’s a basic human right, and the USA cannot provide that right. Yes, we have charities for various medical issues. They have a purpose and serve a function (mostly support, like Macmillan). But the NHS, for all its faults, is a magnificent thing - and its staff are held in the highest regard by the public.

I couldn’t live in the USA with its far right wing attitudes (winners win; losers lose) and polarised culture. I’m far happier in a European country (well, most; some are a bit too racist/homophobic and not sufficiently progressive- usually where religion has a grip) although New Zealand is pretty amazing.

Still, chacun a son gout...
Last edited by Ray on Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gaslighting

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crfriend wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:04 pm
One of the highest compliments you used to be able to pay someone was, "You're a gentleman and a scholar."; nowadays, that puts one on thin ice if conversing with someone under 45
Wait... the age or the man??

.... or either or?

:hide:
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Re: Gaslighting

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moonshadow wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:02 pm
crfriend wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:04 pm
One of the highest compliments you used to be able to pay someone was, "You're a gentleman and a scholar."; nowadays, that puts one on thin ice if conversing with someone under 45
Wait... the age or the man??
The speaker. However It is not a phrase than anybody under 40 or 45 would even necessarily know of, so might well misinterpret it.
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