Gaslighting

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Freedomforall
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Re: Gaslighting

Post by Freedomforall »

moonshadow wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:06 am

https://youtu.be/KLODGhEyLvk

The best thing I have seen to date!
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Re: Gaslighting

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He's perceptive and clever, but for my taste his delivery contains a raft of unwelcome four-letter words.

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Re: Gaslighting

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“Sautéed raccoon’s @rseholes on a stick”....brilliant!
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Re: Gaslighting

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by Freedomforall » Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:32 am

moonshadow wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:06 pm

https://youtu.be/KLODGhEyLvk

The best thing I have seen to date!
Sadly a gargantuan amount of truth within the 'harsh' language -- maybe one of the few times and ways vulgarity is justified in that it does speak to other vulgarities. Carl, I wonder what your thoughts might be on if George's message could be presented in the Queens English as effectively? I suspect you have few disagreements with the underlying content; yet for me, though in basic agreement I'm not sure the language of my jarhead days was truly effective then, or now.

I especially find the fat-shaming jarring, yet as to the sloppiness with which so many of us treat our bodies, that too conveys a meaningful message -- but does it "connect" in an effective way? "Gaslighting" is probably in most cases a momentary attention grabber, but not a constructive educational medium.
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Re: Gaslighting

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Honestly, the distance between "socialism" and modern "social democracy" is vast. "Socialism" is defined as "characterised by social ownership of the means of production and workers' self-management of enterprises.". We have nothing like that anywhere in Europe, only political theorists think they are related. The only bit "social" about modern "social democracies" is that they believe the role of government is to cut the sharp corners off pure capitalism by for example enabling collective bargaining (via unions or other means), safety nets, etc.

In general anywhere where there is an imbalance in bargaining power, such as in employment, renting, health insurance, etc the role of government is to introduce mechanisms to level that.

Incidentally, wikipedia asserts that social democracies have socialism as a long term goal, which is complete bullsh*t. There are some actually socialist parties around that want that, but they are fringe movements.
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Re: Gaslighting

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Faldaguy wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:33 pm
Sadly a gargantuan amount of truth within the 'harsh' language -- maybe one of the few times and ways vulgarity is justified in that it does speak to other vulgarities. Carl, I wonder what your thoughts might be on if George's message could be presented in the Queens English as effectively? I suspect you have few disagreements with the underlying content; yet for me, though in basic agreement I'm not sure the language of my jarhead days was truly effective then, or now.
OK, the gauntlet has been thrown down, so I need to find some time to fire up a VM and listen to the thing.

"Foul language" in the USA is sadly now part of the day-to-day discourse, and I cannot count the number of times I hear the "F word" when I'm out and about around here. It's a bit disappointing, but not distressing; there really are ways to get certain emotions across without resorting to what used to be considered an "obscene" word. I've been known to use it once in a great while, but it's reserved for times when I really need a strong expletive, and "Aw, shucks!" just doesn't carry the weight it once did.

That said, and if the guy is accurately describing what's going on, obscenity absolutely has a place because what's been being done to the American People is an obscenity -- and anybody who has either been paying attention all along or anybody who has recently figured it out has every justification to be enraged.
I especially find the fat-shaming jarring, yet as to the sloppiness with which so many of us treat our bodies, that too conveys a meaningful message -- but does it "connect" in an effective way? "Gaslighting" is probably in most cases a momentary attention grabber, but not a constructive educational medium.
I suspect there's a parallel story-line going on there and he's using allegory to describe a problem. I can't say for sure at the moment (not having seen it), but the parallel of what's happened to the typical American body parallels the ruination that's been set upon us by the elites. We're either fat slobs with a raft of obesity-related problems, or we're so super-"fit" that it defies description -- neither one of which are species-normative.

"Gaslighting" takes time, and malicious will, to accomplish. I challenge anyone to take a detailed look at societal attitudes and norms in the 1970s and compare them to today and say that there hasn't been a profound change -- and not for the better (unless you're a billionaire, that is). There was a sharp lurch to the right in the 1980s corresponding to the rise of the neo-con and the reactionary (which gave the US Ronald Reagan and the UK Margaret Thatcher), and it's been moving farther right since -- but covered up carefully by propaganda. Gaslighting. The elites turned down the lights and then convinced us that it's us that are "seeing things", not accurately noting a change in our surroundings. So, in that respect the term is apropos.
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Re: Gaslighting

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Ray wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:50 am
Most European countries have socialist elements in their economies. They are doing fine, thanks - and the poor and less well-off are not cast aside like in the US. Get free healthcare. It’s based on socialism.
Yeah I know. I've grown so weary of constantly trying to explain to people what the differences are, and the pros and cons of each.

They all just throw Venezuela in my face and walk away. Funny, basically every first world, and even many second world nations have some form of government sponsored health care...

But not us... 'cause..... Venezuela.


Thanks a lot Venezuela.... :roll:

The only good thing to come out of the 2020 political situation is the blatant and blunt realization that our system, that was billed as "a perfect union" and the model of proper government that the world should aspire to become is.... flawed at best. Flat out broken at worst.

The American people are fools. Unfortunately I must cast myself along that lot, for I too have been foolishly naive. I realize now, that during my life I have been infected with the cancer of American superiority over all others. However, I just don't know what to do about it.

The blind "patriots" that remain, basically tell me to "get the f--k out of their blessed nation then!" As if one can just pack a bag and head on over to Canada and become a citizen there...

No sir, I am still required to pay Uncle Sam income tax no matter where I live until I am complete naturalized, which may or may not ever happen.

But truthfully it runs deeper than that. For deep down, I still feel loyal to what I always though America represented. I don't want to be a Canadian, or British, or Japanese, or Russian, etc. I want to be American, for I love what this country stands for..... or at least what I thought it stood for, now I'm just not sure any more.

I'm having to reconcile the fact that I was lied to my entire life, by pretty much everyone. After 40 years, finally realizing something you loved and took great pride in was a sham. It's like finding out that your wife of 40 years is and always had been, a whore.

That's where I'm at right now. I loved what I thought America was, that nation doesn't exist, and I guess it never did, and it likely never will. I must accept this.

Unless things get really bad, I'll probably stay here if I can, but right now, it's just where I live, it means nothing to me. There is nothing left to fight for, the nation is dead.

And if China or Russia want to come over here and take over everything. So be it. I don't even care anymore. I've got at best 30-40 years left on this God forsaken rock, I guess I can manage until then. I suppose my greater contribution was that I never had children of my own blood. I'd feel terrible about bringing new lives into this horrid place.
Faldaguy wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:33 pm
especially find the fat-shaming jarring, yet as to the sloppiness with which so many of us treat our bodies, that too conveys a meaningful message -- but does it "connect" in an effective way?
I agree, not everything Carlin says I find agreeable, but then again... nobody bats a thousand.
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Re: Gaslighting

Post by moonshadow »

rode_kater wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:11 pm
Honestly, the distance between "socialism" and modern "social democracy" is vast. "Socialism" is defined as "characterised by social ownership of the means of production and workers' self-management of enterprises.". We have nothing like that anywhere in Europe, only political theorists think they are related. The only bit "social" about modern "social democracies" is that they believe the role of government is to cut the sharp corners off pure capitalism by for example enabling collective bargaining (via unions or other means), safety nets, etc.

In general anywhere where there is an imbalance in bargaining power, such as in employment, renting, health insurance, etc the role of government is to introduce mechanisms to level that.

Incidentally, wikipedia asserts that social democracies have socialism as a long term goal, which is complete bullsh*t. There are some actually socialist parties around that want that, but they are fringe movements.
I know... I know.... good luck convincing a Trumpie of that... then watch them as they swipe that EBT card or file their insurance claims through Medicare...

Then there is the stuff that goes on behind the scenes like agriculture and oil subsidies, tax breaks for coal operations, etc....

Hypocrites!
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Re: Gaslighting

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I know it's considered bad form to quote one's self, but:
crfriend wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:34 pm
OK, the gauntlet has been thrown down, so I need to find some time to fire up a VM and listen to the thing.
I just got through listening to it, and I really wish somebody had warned me about the speaker.

George Carlin was dead on in his observations in that sketch -- dead on. Sure, it was laced with profanity, but his genre was stand-up comedy so he was playing to it. However, skip over the profane bits and you'll find much more than a dollop of truth. In point of fact, you'll find a bucket-full of it.

Now, here's an interesting observation. Mr. Carlin passed away in 2008, before the second eight years of Cheney/Dubya happened -- and I'd have loved to hear him on that. Sadly, he was unavailable for comment. He cannot comment on P-45, although I'd love to hear that as well. That skit was likely taped in 2006 or so (I was unable to locate a date for it), so that gives one an idea. I was aware of the final punch-line, "It's called the 'American Dream' for a reason! You've got to be asleep to believe it!", and that was floating around well before his passing.

It wouldn't take a lot of work to rearrange that and deliver it in the Queen's English -- not much at all. Simply snip the profanity and add the necessary "glue" to make it flow. The structure is there; the substance is there; and the bald facts are there. Just look around the next time you get out in this sad land.

Sauteed raccoons ... on a stick... I'm going to be laughing about that for a week. And folks wonder why I loathe "leggings" so much...
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Re: Gaslighting

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The Preamble of the US Constitution does NOT say the following is the blueprint of "a perfect" anything; it says they were trying to establish "a more perfect union" through the following document. They doubled down on that recognition of their limitations by including two distinct mechanisms for amending their creation; the process that's become the standard mechanism and by a Constitutional Convention called by the states. Considering how well our Constitution has served us and for how long, I still say the original Constitutional Convention did a darned good job.

As to giving up on the US, that it doesn't stand for anything anymore, consider the portions of our Declaration of Independence that we're most familiar and proud of; that "all men are created equal endowed by their Creator by certain unalienable rights." At face value, when you consider the author of those words, they're a blatant example of shameless hypocrisy; the author enslaved other human beings! Including his own children!

As aspiration, they have inspired the whole world! Look at what we have done with that phrase in the 244 years since: expanded the vote to all social classes, races and both sexes; explicitly expanded civil rights to groups that the Founding Fathers didn't even realize existed or at least never officially discussed but most importantly, time and time again held up those ringing words as the measure of our deeds and strove to measure up.

I believe that Joe Biden's election wasn't yet another ploy by those crafty oligarchs who are operating in the shadows; but instead a clarion call by the people to our leadership to bring us together for the common cause of "promoting the general welfare."

I agree with Carl's assertion that we have at least 4 existential crises staring us and, in the case of at least 2 of the 4, the rest of the world in the face. Those 4 being:
  • Income and wealth inequality (This is more the US's problem than nearly any other country's.)
    Access to health care (Again nearly uniquely the US.)
    Climate change.
    The Covid-19 pandemic.


But until we Americans get back to that old-fashioned standard of rational, civil and fact-based discourse, none of these problems will be solved. We Americans also need to reembrace the overarching lesson of the two world wars; the United States does not exist in its own little bubble blissfully disconnected from all of the world's problems. We need to reengage in multilateral agreements because all of those existential threats to our continued existence as an independent, free nation are rooted in what's going on in the rest of the world. Or at least how we have responded to what's going on outside of our borders.

On the other side of our borders, our critics need to keep in mind that while over the last 4 years we haven't played well with the rest of you, we're still the 800-pound gorilla in the global sandbox so, you can't just ignore us.
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Re: Gaslighting

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Way back in the '50s just such a gorilla was promoted as having learned to play golf to international standard, so with much fanfare a match was arranged between said gorilla and the Golf champion of the day, Sammy Snead.

Sam drove off the tee on the (Par 4, 415 yard) first hole at Augusta 250 yards down the middle. The gorilla drove off second, landing his tee-shot pin high on the green, 415 yards. Sam then played a 7-iron sweetly onto the green, just a foot further from the hole than the gorilla's ball. Sam holed out his putt, a birdie three.
The crowd hushed in anticipation as the gorilla approached his ball, putter in hand, a six-footer for an Eagle two, but he promptly drove his ball a further 400 yards with the putter, gouging a whopping big divot out of the green into the bargain!

Biden needs to steer the US Military gorilla skillfully.

Tom
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Re: Gaslighting

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Biden needs to steer the US Military gorilla skillfully.


True that!

And Congress needs to reassert its sole authority to declare war.
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Re: Gaslighting

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"There are just shy of 214 million registered voters in the US (213,799,467 according to the World Population Review), so even 5.3 million (which sounds like a lot) is only 2.5 (2.476 to be precise) percent separating the two -- large enough to be counted to be sure, but statistically in the noise band."

If you use a large enough denominator, any number looks puny.

The relevant base is the number of people who actually voted! That figure is 62,984,828. Divide that into 5.3 million and you get a squosh over 8.4%! Clearly beyond typical margins of error for polls.
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Re: Gaslighting

Post by Faldaguy »

by Pdxfashionpioneer » Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:45 pm

"There are just shy of 214 million registered voters in the US (213,799,467 according to the World Population Review), so even 5.3 million (which sounds like a lot) is only 2.5 (2.476 to be precise) percent separating the two -- large enough to be counted to be sure, but statistically in the noise band."

If you use a large enough denominator, any number looks puny.

The relevant base is the number of people who actually voted! That figure is 62,984,828. Divide that into 5.3 million and you get a squosh over 8.4%! Clearly beyond typical margins of error for polls.
Dave, you've been drinking too much grape juice! The actual number who voted is closer to 153.9 million; Biden got a bit over 80M & T another almost 74 M -- I think the spread is gaining a bit as the days and recounts march on -- but regardless of the precise percentage -- it is still too damn close as far as I am concerned. I'm delighted 5M plus more folks had the good sense to vote for someone other than T -- but I'm deeply concerned about a country that has 70M plus that would vote for him -- especially after watching him for four years. Fortunately your fair city contributed a good chunk of those extra 5M.
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Re: Gaslighting

Post by rode_kater »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:13 pm
The Preamble of the US Constitution does NOT say the following is the blueprint of "a perfect" anything; it says they were trying to establish "a more perfect union" through the following document. They doubled down on that recognition of their limitations by including two distinct mechanisms for amending their creation; the process that's become the standard mechanism and by a Constitutional Convention called by the states. Considering how well our Constitution has served us and for how long, I still say the original Constitutional Convention did a darned good job.
I believe the US constitution suffers badly from "first-mover disadvantage". For its time it was very innovative, though not without its flaws. Countries that later adopted constitutions copied the good bits and changed the bad bits. To actually update the US constitution with all the subsequent innovations is basically undoable.

Examples of nice improvements (coincidently from the countries I'm most familiar with):
  • Territories get representation in the Senate, as well as states (Australia)
  • Bills regarding appropriations/taxes/duties may only be about that and not anything else (to avoid tacking unrelated crap onto budget bills). (Australia)
  • No electoral college (basically everywhere)
  • Protecting freedom of expression (thus also clothing) in addition to freedom of speech (ECHR, NL)
  • Explicitly protecting privacy (NL)
  • Some form of PR and abolishing the district system (NL)
I used to see people proclaiming that the US had the best constitution ever and everything else was just a weak copy. I don't hear that so much these days any more.
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