MORAL, US politics this week

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crfriend
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Re: MORAL, US politics this week

Post by crfriend »

Sinned wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:36 pm
But I still fail to see why the EC is even needed or was ever needed. Maybe as an outsider looking in I'm missing something but it's just a needless complication and, as has been noted, subject to partisan abuse.
Most folks in the United States don't understand it either because the historical context needed to interpret the reason for it isn't taught and hasn't been for generations.

Before the USA "grew up" there were two competing visions as to what the place would look like, one championed by Thomas Jefferson and the other by Alexander Hamilton. Jefferson envisioned an agrarian nation and Hamilton one that was based on commerce and trade. These existed side by side for a while with the EC intended to ensure some equality between the two if things got out of hand. Well things eventually got out of hand, and in a little kerfuffle we had in the 1860s the Hamiltonian model whupped the Jeffersonian model -- but nobody did anything about the Electoral College, even though they should have at the time.

Wind the clock forward by more than a century and nobody knows how the thing got there, only that is it, and it's enshrined -- usually by the loser of the popular vote who then winds up as Supreme Exalted Leader against the will of The People. Go figure.
Simply vote for a nominee President ,one person, one vote - the one getting the most votes wins. Simples.
Not so fast. As we see in modern times, the actual decisions are made a long time in advance of the election by gating the candidates that are allowed to run. No matter who you vote for, the oligarchs win.

Things have not improved.
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Re: MORAL, US politics this week

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Sinned wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:36 pm
But I still fail to see why the EC is even needed or was ever needed. Maybe as an outsider looking in I'm missing something but it's just a needless complication and, as has been noted, subject to partisan abuse. Simply vote for a nominee President ,one person, one vote - the one getting the most votes wins. Simples.
The Electoral College is "needed" to give low-population states more power. Originally it was "needed" to help preserve slavery. The US Senate is the same way. Low-population states have the power to not give up their power.
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Freedomforall
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Re: MORAL, US politics this week

Post by Freedomforall »

Perhaps this is a less biased view of what is taking place.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Au0gTu6kj6Y#menu
Last edited by Freedomforall on Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MORAL, US politics this week

Post by moonshadow »

Freedomforall wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:50 pm
just met the guy that runs the soccer program at the stadium. He said he has to get Covid tested every other day.
That's a lot of nose swabbin'.
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Re: MORAL, US politics this week

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Freedomforall wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:50 pm
Perhaps this is a less biased view of what is taking place.

Moon I posted the wrong link. Lol. Wish you would have messaged me. Here is the link. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Au0gTu6kj6Y#menu
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Re: MORAL, US politics this week

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I posted that and realized that Glenn Beck is biased himself. Oh, well. I cannot keep up with all that goes on.
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Re: MORAL, US politics this week

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Freedomforall wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:14 pm
I posted that and realized that Glenn Beck is biased himself. Oh, well. I cannot keep up with all that goes on.
We all have biases; that's just a fact of life. We're human, after all. The key is whether we can put them aside when we're analyzing a situation -- or at least be aware of them so we can avoid pitfalls.
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Re: MORAL, US politics this week

Post by Freedomforall »

Very good point. Thank you.
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Re: MORAL, US politics this week

Post by moonshadow »

Freedomforall wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:18 pm
Freedomforall wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:50 pm
Perhaps this is a less biased view of what is taking place.

Moon I posted the wrong link. Lol. Wish you would have messaged me. Here is the link. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Au0gTu6kj6Y#menu
I actually found that interview very enlightening. It's been some time since I've heard Glenn Beck, and I'll confess my "bias meter" ticks a little when I hear his name, but in this case, I think he handled the interview very well, he asked good questions and got good straight forward answers from his guest.

Did anyone else catch the bit of "shock and awe" in Glenn Becks voice when he briefly contemplated the notion that Trump might seal [0] a victory without the popular vote OR the electoral College?

He almost sounded genuinely concerned for the certain civil unrest, fighting, and war like violence that would follow. I'm left to assume even Glenn Beck doesn't fancy a civil war.

I think deep down many people, even in Trumps hardline base know that Trump isn't just playing with fire... he's playing with a proverbial atomic bomb right now...

If Trump had any love for his country whatsoever, he would concede this race, and advocate for a PEACEFUL transition. The fact that he refuses indicates his love not for his country, but for himself and his own interest.

This is moral checkmate.... but many hardline Trumpies refuse to accept it. Many do indeed seem desire Civil War so bad they can't stand it. I advise them then to go board a plane and visit some of the war torn areas in the Middle East and decide then if that's what they want here at home.

This won't be anything like the 1860s reenactments where everyone goes home at the end of the day. It will be hell.

And for what....? One man's ego? Really....?

[0] yes, I said "seal" not "steal"... I'm trying to nix the cynicism and just get to the point.
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Re: MORAL, US politics this week

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And I see Mr. Trump is currently doing what many expected him to do... he's trying to convince Republican states legislatures to flat out ignore the will (election outcome) of their given states and mandate their electors carry him [Trump] anyway....

Now who's trying to steal the election here?

That's dirty, and I just don't see how any red blooded American could possibly support such a tyrannical move, but alas, he's still God in my locale!

If a Democrat were attempting what Trump is attempting, these people [my local church body of Trump] would be losing their minds!

You don't have to approve of Joe Biden, but you have to admit, if Trump pulls this off.... this ain't democracy.
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Re: MORAL, US politics this week

Post by pelmut »

It could result in an interesting international situation if other countries refuse to acknowledge him in the same way they would refuse to acknowledge any other dictator who had siezed power illegitimately.  America could finish up being ostracised in international affairs by the free world and having to draw on other 'rogue' dictatorships for support.
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Re: MORAL, US politics this week

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moonshadow wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:47 am
And I see Mr. Trump is currently doing what many expected him to do... he's trying to convince Republican states legislatures to flat out ignore the will (election outcome) of their given states and mandate their electors carry him [Trump] anyway....
In the highly unlikely event that that happens, I suspect it would be the ultimate catalyst for the country to get rid of the Electoral College once and for all. It might actually be good for the country in the long run because it would prove beyond a shadow of doubt precisely how corrupt things have gotten and maybe -- just maybe -- could break be back of "both" the mainstream political parties forever. (It's nice to fantasize now and then. The realist in me knows that no matter how this "election" went, it's pretty much over for the general population.)
You don't have to approve of Joe Biden, but you have to admit, if Trump pulls this off.... this ain't democracy.
There was some recent scuttlebutt that Biden may be planning on pardoning Trump once Biden ascends the throne. Talk about a corrupt move!
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Re: MORAL, US politics this week

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:46 pm
There was some recent scuttlebutt that Biden may be planning on pardoning Trump once Biden ascends the throne. Talk about a corrupt move!
I've not heard of that, however, corrupt as it may be, it could actually stop some of the political burning that's currently taking place, 49% of the populous believes Trump is completely innocent, and I'd say most Democrats would forget such a move once the country begins to heal.

I wouldn't support pardoning Trump personally, but I can certainly see the advantages in restoring at least some semblance of national peace.
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Re: MORAL, US politics this week

Post by crfriend »

moonshadow wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:37 pm
I've not heard of [a pardon for Trump] however, corrupt as it may be, it could actually stop some of the political burning that's currently taking place, 49% of the populous believes Trump is completely innocent, and I'd say most Democrats would forget such a move once the country begins to heal.
That was Gerald Ford's reasoning for pardoning Richard Nixon -- and Nixon's crimes were nothing compared to Trump's. The decision was suicidal for Ford, and he lasted but a single term (making things worse than they needed to be). Biden might do it, but that'd guarantee yet another razor's-edge "election" in 2024 which would definitely finish the USA off as any sort of world-class power. The backlash against Biden would be YUGE! and might possibly result in Trump being re-elevated to the throne in 2024 if he can't hang onto this one (illegally).

I think that'd be worse than a Harris/H.Clinton regime...
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Re: MORAL, US politics this week

Post by moonshadow »

Well, I'll say this much, pretty much all of the news outlets are buzzing with Trump's latest strategy to flat out ignore the various state's popular vote and/or kick this one to the house...

Under those circumstances, I've set my clock for 5am to get up and vote for the last time. It is a complete waste of time, this nation is about to transform into an outright authoritarian fascist dictatorship, the likes of which would be the envy of any nazi still around today.

I hope that Al, and Fred, and Dan, and my father are happy. We are about to become North Korea. Congratulations.

Shut the lights out... it's over, go home.
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