Questions about english language

[Freefrom]

Spirou003,
It's a bit like swimming. One can get changed and hover at the poolside, dip a toe in the water and shiver thinking it's too cold. Just dive in and enjoy it the coldness soon goes away.

[oldsalt1]

Dan

It’s Britain and the United States, not England.

I’ve told you before. Britain and England are not interchangeable. Do keep up.

There are many versions of this quote but it was George Bernard Shaw who specifically said England and America

[Gusto10]

This brings back memories. In the 80's there was a program on BBC worldservice called Prof. Grammar (6.30 GMT (following the program "Off the shelf")). People could call in those pose similar questions. Many questions were posed by schoolteachers teaching English after having been corrected by a student. Often enough the answer was: neither is wrong.

[crfriend]

[...]it was George Bernard Shaw who specifically said England and America.

Just because somebody famous got it wrong once doesn't mean we should keep repeating it -- especially if others may take offence at it. It's worth bearing in mind that the UK has some similar internal divisions that the US does, and it's very possible to insult somebody from the US by misidentifying where they live, especially if they keep doing it.

Even the flag of the UK -- the Union Flag -- represents this. Look hard, it's a superimposition of the cross of Saint George (England), the cross of Saint Andrew (Scotland), and the cross of Saint Patrick (Ireland). England fields a football (soccer to the Yanks) team and that plays under the English flag which is the cross of Saint George on a white background. The Scottish flag can be seen occasionally on golf tournaments which is the cross of Saint Andrew and is consists of white diagonals on a blue field. More rarely seen is the cross of Saint Patrick which is red diagonals on a white field. By way of highly creative overlaying of the the three the very striking and unmistakable Union Flag was created -- perhaps the original "one from many".

But lumping the entire UK into "England" is flat wrong, even though many in the US insist upon doing so.

[trainspotter48]

And continuing on from Carl's observations:-
There is the Welsh flag featuring a dragon rampant, and the Cornish flag comprising a white cross on a black background, and a similar one for Devon, but with a green background.
But I suspect that there are various 'state' flags on the other side of the pond.

[Freefrom]

Peoples from the islands of Britain, the North, Scotland. The West, Ireland and Wales and the South West, Devon and Cornwall often regard themselves as 'Celts' and of a seperate origin from those of 'middle England'. Myself included. I understand that a similar feeling exists in France, Spain and Portugal.
No matter of regional disturbances I believe we are all one peoples and share a common planet. Again in my humblest of opinion I observe that those folks folks who inhabit 'middle England' rush around rather too much?

[oldsalt1]

[...]it was George Bernard Shaw who specifically said England and America.

Just because somebody famous got it wrong once doesn't mean we should keep repeating it -- especially if others may take offence at it. It's worth bearing in mind that the UK has some similar internal divisions that the US does, and it's very possible to insult somebody from the US by misidentifying where they live, especially if they keep doing it.


But lumping the entire UK into "England" is flat wrong, even though many in the US insist upon doing so.

Sorry Ray didn't mean to cause any problems . will try to remember in the future.

A question CR how come you are not so hyper sensitive when someone on the cafe says something about the US . Especially if others may take offense at it

[Ray]

Dan,

Appreciated, and thank you. If you remember that the word England as a proxy for the UK or Britain is offensive to non-English Britons, then that’s a step forward.

Cheers!

Ray

[crfriend]

A question CR how come you are not so hyper sensitive when someone on the cafe says something about the US . Especially if others may take offense at it.

That's a fair question. The reason is that I find much of the current system of government in the USA entirely offensive and contrary to what the founding documents say should be true.

Read the history and the text of the US Constitution -- with a critical eye -- and tell me how closely it aligns now with what was intended. It is hard to take offence at comments about something that is already deeply offensive.

In the case of the UK, I was pointing up history and the way the modern place came to be.

[oldsalt1]

So Cr let me get this straight if some one says something that could be offensive to someone but you happen to agree with the comment than its ok

but if someone says something that could be offensive and you don't agree with the comment than its cause for mention and concern

I think with that you bring fairness and impartiality to a new level.

[crfriend]

I think with that you bring fairness and impartiality to a new level.

The world is frequently an offensive place, and each and every one of us have our own internal biases; that's part and parcel of being human. I do my level best not to let mine get in the way. I also realize that we cannot remove all offence from the world. It's just not possible. Some things are inherently offensive -- like corruption and abuse of power -- and those need to get called out.

[Sinned]

Carl, did you know that the Union Flag is asymmetric? It is possible to get the flag upside-down? If you look closely the broader white diagonal stripe should be on the top. And yes we can be sensitive about British, English, Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh. They are all different and are NOT interchageable.

Dan, stop needling Carl. You'll get very little satisfaction from it and it just shows how petty you can be at times. Disagreements happen, get over it.

[crfriend]

Carl, did you know that the Union Flag is asymmetric? It is possible to get the flag upside-down?

I absolutely know it -- and know which way is "up" although I have always keyed on where the red cross of Saint Patrick intersects the flagstaff (the white is a useful adjunct, though). Another little-known aspect of flags is that in a nautical setting, flying a flag upside-down is a statement of distress. One needs sharp eyes -- and knowledge -- to tell when the Union flag is upside down.

[Shilo]

I would say most Brits don’t know which way is up when it comes to the Union Flag ( the clue’s in the name) What I do find offensive is the way both it and the Flag of St George have been hijacked by racists and tight wing extremists to the extent that the loony left claim flying it is offensive. It seems that Americans of all political hues are rightly proud of their flag. Whereas we are increasingly encouraged to be ashamed of ours

[crfriend]

What I do find offensive is the way both it and the Flag of St George have been hijacked by racists and tight wing extremists to the extent that the loony left claim flying it is offensive.

The same thing has largely happened in the USA. The far right has essentially hijacked the flag to the point where rational moderates are beginning to find "Old Glory" either as alien as the flag of Idi Amin's Uganda or outright offensive because it no longer represents their nation or them.

There was a brief moment of unity in the immediate aftermath of September 11, 2001 but that only existed until the far right mounted a massive campaign that further reduced civil liberties in the US and instituted the surveillance society that we exist in today. It no longer relates to "the Republic for which it stands", but rather the oligarchs' America that has disenfranchised millions of its own citizens inhabitants.

There are those who disagree, of course, mainly at the far "right" fringe. They are welcome to their beliefs; I just wish they'd allow the rest of us to have our opinions. Better yet -- a vote, but that's not going to happen.