The Other Side Of George Floyd

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moonshadow
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by moonshadow »

Thanks stu, I've give them a look over throughout the course of the day.

Initially I will say no "ism" is perfect, but like crafting a recipe... a little salt here, and pinch of spice there... perhaps we can hammer out some good ideas.
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by crfriend »

I would be somewhat careful with some of the sites listed. A few of them seem to be hosted in the USA which has a notorious problem with anything socialistic in nature.

Note that I am not asserting bias in that observation. It is just an observation.
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by Stu »

crfriend wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:26 pm
I would be somewhat careful with some of the sites listed. A few of them seem to be hosted in the USA which has a notorious problem with anything socialistic in nature.
OK. But the facts they relate can be checked against other sources, and they accord with my own, first hand, experience.
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by beachlion »

On face value there is not much wrong with capitalism, socialism or communism. The only problem comes when the human nature gets involved. In any society there are always characters that will try to better themselves at the expence of others. If a controling body could keep those people in check, there would be not much difference between those three -isms.

My extremely simple take on capitalism is what you see happen at this very moment. Companies are trying to get monopolies by buying or destroying the competition. Then they set the prices. Companies also don't like oversight so they try to arrange treaties that will side line governments.

A recent example is doing your taxes in the USA. In the Netherlands the Dutch taxes bureau (equivalent to the IRS) do have a online possibility to do your taxes. I used it for years and it was quite user friendly. In the USA the tax preparers made a deal with the IRS. The IRS would not issue an online way to do taxes and the tax preparers will supply a free online way to fill out your tax forms as long as your income is under a certain treshold. Those online programs are, at least for me, quite a hassle so I went to a tax preparer. A deal like this between tax preparers and the Dutch taxes bureau would be unthinkable.

https://www.propublica.org/article/free ... -h-r-block
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by Ray »

Some interesting points.

However, consider this. Let’s look at a list of countries from the World Happiness Report - issued annually by the United Nations Sustainable Development Solutions Network. I’ll pick the Scandinavian countries and then add a couple of benchmarks.

Here’s the 2019 stats.

1. Finland
2. Denmark
4. Iceland
5. Norway
7. Sweden

13. UK
18. USA.

Now let’s look at a list of countries with the highest tax rates by reference to GDP.

2. Denmark
4. Sweden
5. Finland
9. Norway
13. Iceland

21. UK
34. US.

(Source: OECD, 2018)

I find this interesting. The countries with the highest tax rates, and therefore the ones with the largest governments (or government involvement) seem to be the happiest ones. The happiness index is reasonably consistent from 2017 to 2019.

Now of course we cannot take the relative size of tax receipts and use that as a proxy for identifying a socialist society or government, but there is no doubt that there are much higher levels of social policy in these countries than in the low tax small government countries. This could be explained as the difference between social and socialist.

Nordic countries would appear to pursue a welfare model which

“maximises labour force participation, promotes gender equality, has egalitarian and extensive benefit levels and a large magnitude of income redistribution and liberal use of expansionary fiscal policy”


(Esping-Anderson, G (1991) “the three worlds of welfare capitalism”)

So it seems that countries with some socialist leanings are not moving inexorably towards a Marxist state or pursuing communism as a doctrine. They’re just happier.

Food for thought for those of us in the UK and USA.
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by Dust »

beachlion wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:27 pm
On face value there is not much wrong with capitalism, socialism or communism. The only problem comes when the human nature gets involved. In any society there are always characters that will try to better themselves at the expence of others. If a controling body could keep those people in check, there would be not much difference between those three -isms.
If people were perfect, any government, or none at all would work just fine. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

But communism and (to a somewhat lesser extent) socialism lead to massive body counts. Capitalism, with no regulation, leads to abusive labor practices. None of these systems are great, but some are far worse than others.
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by moonshadow »

Dust wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:05 am
But communism and (to a somewhat lesser extent) socialism lead to massive body counts. Capitalism, with no regulation, leads to abusive labor practices. None of these systems are great, but some are far worse than others.
Wars for profit, privatized prisons, uninsured people, the war on drugs, unregulated safety in the workplace, etc etc...

"Profits before people" is practically a capitalist cliché.
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by Shilo »

It seems to me that the various isms have a similarity to religion. The basic message is good , the problems occur when you introduce people into the equation.
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moonshadow
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by moonshadow »

Stu, I apologize I haven't had a good chance yet to review the links you posted. But I haven't forgotten and intend to comment as the issue of socialized health care means a lot to me.

I understand we are speaking for socialism in general, to which I have a lot to add, not the least of which is my personal opinion on the matter, which may surprise some.

At any rate, I will likely start a fresh thread dedicated to the topic in the next several days.
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by Faldaguy »

Just a quick addition to Stu's rant on socialism is the USA: I thought an report on the SBA (Small Business Administration) PPP loan program was an excellent example of how "Socialism" works in the Capitalist US, so I quote here from one report:


A little-noticed rule issued by the Small Business Administration earlier in the pandemic allows agency employees, lawmakers and other federal officials to sidestep an ethics review that is meant to prevent conflicts of interest.

The exemption pertained to loans from the $659 billion Payment Protection Program (PPP), a lending facility Congress approved with the goal of getting money quickly to small businesses hit hard by the coronavirus lockdowns.

SBA regulations normally require applicants with potential conflicts of interest to obtain a waiver from a Standard of Conduct Committee before the agency can extend them a loan. The regulation is in place to protect taxpayer dollars from being distributed to well-connected people who might not otherwise be eligible.


But the SBA, led by Administrator Jovita Carranza, issued a blanket waiver for that rule as part of PPP. [Note, Jovita is a Trump appointee.]
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by crfriend »

In other words, it doesn't work at all...

So, instead of what was supposed to help my little cobbler in a town a few miles to my south and the boutique I use to get clothing altered to my frame the aid is going to the likes of General Electric and Raytheon.
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by Stu »

Faldaguy wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:37 am
Just a quick addition to Stu's rant on socialism is the USA:
Where did make a "rant on socialism in the USA"?

Please show me where I did that - or withdraw this claim. Thank you.
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Gregg1100
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by Gregg1100 »

Not been here for a while.

Read the toxicity report on floyd.

When arrested, he had 3 times the safe limit of Fentanyl , itself 50 times the strength of heroin. It attacks the airwaves, which is why he said he couldn't breathe. Probably the cop actually never killed him, he was a goner anyway. He was also positive Covid 19.
What happened then in US, UK and elsewhere is just lunacy. Anarchist terrorism.
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by Sinned »

Even if what you were saying was true the cop didn't have to keep kneeling on his neck for over 2 minutes after he stopped breathing. Those two minutes probably were the difference between being able to resuscitate him and not. So the cop was still culpable.
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by Faldaguy »

by Stu » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:44 am

Faldaguy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:37 pm
Just a quick addition to Stu's rant on socialism is the USA:
Where did make a "rant on socialism in the USA"?

Please show me where I did that - or withdraw this claim. Thank you.
Sorry, indeed I not only owe you an apology; but probably Dust too -- to whom I met the comment --not one but two errors on my part. I used the term too loosely and not intended pejoratively. I'll try to take better care to copy the text being quoted rather than shoot from the hip!
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